D&D 5E I think we can safely say that 5E is a success, but will it lead to a new Golden Era?

This is re-writing of history.

Not so, because...

Iron Man and Thor had almost zero wider recognition...

Iron Man had at best recognition of it's actors, not the characters they were playing.

I specifically noted that Iron Man's recognition was due to RDJ's casting, and also noted that Thor was less known.

('course, it was three characters in a wall of text, so easy to miss! :) )

Hulk did, and Captain America to a lesser extent

I don't believe Captain America had less name recognition - sticking "America" in the title is always going to get attention. It is fair to say that association with previous films might be negative... but if so, that would also be relevant to D&D as well.

But I'd say easily the name Dungeons and Dragons has as much wide recognition as Iron Man and Thor did prior to those two having movies.

Absolutely. Unfortunately, a lot of that recognition is going to be negative - 'the' D&D film was terrible, and it's not as if the straight-to-video sequels did anything to help. That's not to say a good film couldn't turn it around, but it will be an uphill struggle.

Guardians proves if it is a good action movie with solid marketing, it will do well even if the public has no idea what the characters are about. It would be wise for them to start with known actors however, but it can be done. Blade had no recognition and did great for Marvel before people trusted Marvel. Who knew Chronicles of Riddick? Shoot, on television Game of Thrones started with only a hardcore small audience but immediately bloomed into a massive audience through word of mouth starting on day one. If it's good, people will see it. It's as simple as that. And they are starting with some recognition for the brand - roughly as much as Iron Man or Thor had prior to Marvel making those movies. Which is a pretty good place to start...better than some successful franchises have had.

I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't think the massive success of Guardians, by itself, disproves the "name recognition" argument. Because by the time it arrived Marvel had name recognition (even if we disagree about how, and at what point, they got it).

(Of course, the "known actors" is only a help, not a guarantee - see Liam Neeson and "Battleship" or Birch/Irons and "Dungeons & Dragons". :) )
 
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Not so, because...

I specifically noted that Iron Man's recognition was due to RDJ's casting

RDJ might have had name recognition in 2008 - but it was the sort of name recognition Lindsey Lohan has these days. Someone who in his younger years did some interesting work but was an an alcoholic screwup. Iron Man wasn't his first film role after rehab - and it was known he could act - but his highlights from 2000-2007 were Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, Gothika, Zodiac, and the only non-Razzie award winning film he did - A Guide to Recognising your Saints - grossing a grand total of $2 million worldwide. (Shaggy Dog got several Razzies). That's a known and talented actor - but not a bankable name.
 

This is re-writing of history. Marvels own internal numbers showed what had and did not have wide public recognition before their movies...and so those are the ones they sold (Spiderman, X-Men, Fantastic Four, and briefly Hulk). Iron Man and Thor had almost zero wider recognition. Hulk did, and Captain America to a lesser extent (though recognition was generally negative to neutral on the later). But Iron Man and Thor were not registering as recognized at all with the wider public. They easily could have gone the way of Howard the Duck or the first Hulk if the movies were not good. They did not go in with the advantage of wide public recognition of the characters. Iron Man had at best recognition of it's actors, not the characters they were playing.

The former CEO of Marvel believes otherwise:

Forbes: Looking back to 1999, what was the most significant strategic decision that helped launch Marvel’s turnaround?

Peter Cuneo: ...We focused on the existing library of characters that were recognizable to the public: Spiderman, the Incredible Hulk, Captain America, etc. It is much safer to revitalize previously successful intellectual property than to assume the greater risk associated with creating new content.


This article in the New York Times also makes it clear that the commercial value of Marvel lies in its characters.

Disney said on Monday that it would pay cash and stock to acquire Marvel, the comic book publisher and movie studio whose library of 5,000 characters includes some of the world’s best-known superheroes: Spider-Man, the X-Men, Thor, Iron Man and the Fantastic Four.
The deal was valued at about $50 a share, a 29 percent premium. On Monday, Marvel shares shot up 25 percent to $48.37.
Marvel has forcefully exploited its most popular characters through motion pictures, video games and consumer products.

...Certain Marvel characters can be immediately integrated into Disney’s theme parks in California, Paris and Hong Kong.

...The brooding Marvel characters tend to be more popular with boys — an area where Disney could use help. While the likes of “Hannah Montana” and the blockbuster Princesses merchandising line have solidified Disney’s hold on little girls, franchises for boys have been harder to come by.

It's all about the characters. And D&D simply doesn't have any recognizable characters that can be marketed the way Marvel superheroes, or Disney princesses, are marketed. That means any D&D movie is going to be a B-movie, because without the promise of global merchandising nobody is going to fork over $100 million to make it, let alone the $200 million the Marvel blockbusters cost.

Guardians of the Galaxy is the exception that proves the rule. And it would never have been financed without the track record of blockbusters Marvel already had under its belt. Even then it was a big risk.
 

The former CEO of Marvel believes otherwise:

He doesn't, and did you read your own quote? Read it again. Look at the names he said, and then look at the names I said and what I said about them. They match. "Spiderman, the Incredible Hulk, Captain America, etc." Notice he does not say Iron Man and Thor? Notice I said Spiderman and Hulk and to a lesser extent Captain America had the name recognition, but Iron Man and Thor did not? He's saying the same thing I said.

This article in the New York Times also makes it clear that the commercial value of Marvel lies in its characters.

It does. Which is why they made so much money selling Spiderman, X-Men, Fantastic Four, and briefly Hulk. Enough to pull them out of bankruptcy. And NOW the value is also in other previously-lesser-known characters such as Iron Man and Thor and Guardians of the Galaxy and even Blade.

But my point stands, and nothing you've linked to or quoted challenges any of that in the least, it just reinforced what I said. Some of the characters had name recognition and others did not. The ones with the biggest recognition they sold (Spiderman, X-Men, Fantastic Four, and briefly Hulk). The ones that were considered B-level they kept (Iron Man, Thor, Captain America - which was the best of the rest for them). Marvel's internal numbers showed the wider public didn't really have any idea who Iron Man or Thor were, and they had mixed feelings about Captain America if they knew of him at all. But it was the best of what they had remaining after the fire sale to get out of bankruptcy, so that's what they had to go with. But, they were not going in with the advantage they have now. They were going in lacking wide public recognition of those characters.

It's all about the characters. And D&D simply doesn't have any recognizable characters that can be marketed the way Marvel superheroes, or Disney princesses, are marketed. That means any D&D movie is going to be a B-movie, because without the promise of global merchandising nobody is going to fork over $100 million to make it, let alone the $200 million the Marvel blockbusters cost.

First the backing will of course come from Hasbro Studios and Universal Studios. They deal is already done. And it's not like Hasbro is a bunch of amateurs at this - they already have two franchises (Transformers and GI Joe), a third big film (Battleship), and 7 more already in the pipeline (Ouji, Jem and the Holograms, Candy Land, Monopoly, Hungry Hungry Hippos, Tonka, and Magic the Gathering). They already have a global brand marketing and merchandising machine in place - indeed, other brands come to THEM for merchandising, because their operation is already so huge. And that's not to mention all the television they already have. There is no doubt at all they have the funding already for a good sized movie and branding and merchandising, and they've committed firmly to it by suing Warner Brothers over the rights. I don't know why you're thinking of this as some tiny operation that needs someone else to fund and merchandise for them - are you kidding me, did you forget Marvel went to Hasbro to merchandise for Marvel when those movies came out?

Second, even if all that were not the case (and it is) they don't need that sort of budget. Blade was made for $45M and made $131M. X-men was made for $75M and made $296M. Spiderman was made for $130M and made $822M. Iron Man was made for $140M and made $585M. Those are the first four modern Marvel-based movies (though Marvel did not own two of those), and all were made for substantially less than $200M and all made HUGE profits. Don't mistake current Marvel budgets for what they were working with initially. Initially, those Marvel-based character movies had fairly normal budgets, and they did well whether they had name recognition going in or not.

Not that all Marvel movies have been such successes. Daredevil (which had MORE name recognition with the public than Iron Man or Thor did) didn't do well. Ghost Rider had mixed success. Hulk did poor to midling (and it had top three name recognition going in). My point is, name recognition isn't as important as you think it is, and Marvel proved that pretty well. Some of the films based on characters with high public recognition did poorly, and some with low recognition did well.

Guardians of the Galaxy is the exception that proves the rule. And it would never have been financed without the track record of blockbusters Marvel already had under its belt. Even then it was a big risk.

Baloney. Blade had zero recognition, zero Marvel blockbusters before it, and it did very well. Hulk had huge recognition and did poorly. And as I have detailed above, Iron Man and Thor had very little recognition (about as much as D&D does) going into those movies, and also did not have the depth of Marvel successes behind it when those movies first launched, but both did well. meanwhile movies like Daredevil which had more recognition than Iron Man or Thor going in did poorly. Success or failure is not predicated on recognition, and there isn't even a very good pattern here to say it's even a top three factor.
 
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Haven't read the thread but: it could be said the LotR and Hobbit movies were, in a way, D&D movies, since D&D basically exists because of the Tolkien books. It doesn't have the branding, but the core is 100% the same.
 

Blade had zero recognition, zero Marvel blockbusters before it, and it did very well. Hulk had huge recognition and did poorly. And as I have detailed above, Iron Man and Thor had very little recognition (about as much as D&D does) going into those movies, and also did not have the depth of Marvel successes behind it when those movies first launched, but both did well. meanwhile movies like Daredevil which had more recognition than Iron Man or Thor going in did poorly. Success or failure is not predicated on recognition, and there isn't even a very good pattern here to say it's even a top three factor.
Ha, actually I see a pattern: the bigger the name recognition, the more "hollywood" they make the movie - to try to catch a wider audience. The less the name recognition, the more they are ok with allowing someone to write a script that isn't complete lowest-common-denominator suck.

Sorry, jumping in on the tail of what is obviously a heated debate, but it's just funny how the bigger brands have sucked so badly.
 

Ha, actually I see a pattern: the bigger the name recognition, the more "hollywood" they make the movie - to try to catch a wider audience. The less the name recognition, the more they are ok with allowing someone to write a script that isn't complete lowest-common-denominator suck.

Sorry, jumping in on the tail of what is obviously a heated debate, but it's just funny how the bigger brands have sucked so badly.

I think you are on to something there :)
 

Ha, actually I see a pattern: the bigger the name recognition, the more "hollywood" they make the movie - to try to catch a wider audience. The less the name recognition, the more they are ok with allowing someone to write a script that isn't complete lowest-common-denominator suck.
What are you talking about? Transformers was so awesome.

Just... so awesome.

So... so...

Oh God.

"DUNGEONS & DRAGONS"

"a Michael Bay film"
 

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