D&D 5E help me play with prestige classses/paragon paths

[GMforPowergamers]

OK, so we all know the D&D team are thinking about prestige classes, but are unsure of what to do with them. I figure that since we now have the basic rules, and some lucky sobs even have the PHB...fewer still have it and the MM, we could bat around some idea's.


For the point of this discussion (inless someone objects) I would say both PCs and PPs are multi class only classes that have prereqs.

is there a space in 5e for them, or is the subclass all we need? Well my thought is that (yes without even seeing a phb yet) there is some cool space left for them.

My thoughts are knights of line from dragon lance as bigger Prestige classes would work, and alsosome of the 3.5 ones just brought forward.'




my first homebrew one I am looking at (suggestion and critics welcome...just please be nice about critics)

a Knight hood of mystic warriors (why yes I know what an eldritch knight is thank you) from a long forgotten time that will reappear.

prereqs:
Must have a second attack
Must be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells
Must be knighted and trained by another knight of atleast 3rd level in this class


this class gives d8 hp
For multi class purposes this class counts as a full 1-1 spellcaster class

level 1- Mystic Link you can choose a weapon and spend 24hrs meditating and bonding with it. From this point forward that weapon is considered a focus for spell casting, and on a crit deals +1d4 damage of an element of your choosing)

Level 2- Battle concentration although not a spell per say this feature does use up your concentration. As long as you maintain it up to 1 min per character level you gain a floating plus equal to half your class level. At the beginning of every turn you may break that bonus up to one of 4 ways:
+ to Attack and Damage
+ to AC and Saves
+ to DC of spell Saves
regen that many hp up to a max of half hp

Level 3- Bonus spell- You gain a bonus spell known that can be of a level equal to your highest spell slot from ANY spell list.

Level 4- Improved mystic link Your weapon now always deals +1d4 of an element of your chossing in battle, but on a crit it increases to +1d6

Level 5- Bonus spell- You gain a bonus spell known that can be of a level equal to your highest spell slot from ANY spell list.


It is kinda like an old school bladesinger...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

prereqs:
Must have a second attack
Must be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells
Must be knighted and trained by another knight of atleast 3rd level in this class

so cleric of the god of war 6, ranger or paliden 6, Fighter (eldritch knight 6) or a multi class of them (ex wizard 3/fighter 5)

this class gives d8 hp
For multi class purposes this class counts as a full 1-1 spellcaster class

so this class isn't as tough as a fighter but lets you get higher level spells then taking combat classes...

level 1- Mystic Link you can choose a weapon and spend 24hrs meditating and bonding with it. From this point forward that weapon is considered a focus for spell casting, and on a crit deals +1d4 damage of an element of your choosing)

at first I was going to take the 3.0 samari magic weapon idea, then I thought of stealing magus from path finder... in the end this is the weak link in the class

Level 2- Battle concentration although not a spell per say this feature does use up your concentration. As long as you maintain it up to 1 min per character level you gain a floating plus equal to half your class level. At the beginning of every turn you may break that bonus up to one of 4 ways:
+ to Attack and Damage
+ to AC and Saves
+ to DC of spell Saves
regen that many hp up to a max of half hp

this was inspired by 2e bladesinger

Level 3- Bonus spell- You gain a bonus spell known that can be of a level equal to your highest spell slot from ANY spell list.

again focusing on giving more caster power to the gish archtype then they get without it...

Level 4- Improved mystic link Your weapon now always deals +1d4 of an element of your chossing in battle, but on a crit it increases to +1d6

Level 5- Bonus spell- You gain a bonus spell known that can be of a level equal to your highest spell slot from ANY spell list.

by limiting it to 5 levels it stops it from getting too out of hands with spells, but lets them get 2 higher level then normal... and if you are an eldritch knight taking this class at 10+ level looks pretty good.

ex: eldritch knight 6 takes 5 levels of this class... they use the multi class chart for level 8 (4th level spells) still know 6th level EK spells but also those 2 bonus spells are at higher max level from any spell in the game... so at level 9 that could be a 3rd level spell and at level 11 it could be a 4th level spell...

on the other hand a 12th level EK takes 5 levels in this class and at level 3 (15 total) he has a multi caster of 7 and can learn a 4th level spell... then at level 5 (17 total) can learn a 5th level spell.

 

[Li Shenron]

For the point of this discussion (inless someone objects) I would say both PCs and PPs are multi class only classes that have prereqs.

That's quite limiting, but ok.

is there a space in 5e for them, or is the subclass all we need?

Absolutely yes.

If you have a mid/high level character concept which you intend available to more than one class, subclasses won't work.

Feat chains may or may not work, depending on how extensive the character concept is. If it covers a lot of levels worth of features, it might result in the feat chain not being enough for a PC to take all of it, or it might require to reach levels which are too high. In that case it's better to design a prestige class (i.e. an N-levels class that starts at higher level).

prereqs:
Must have a second attack
Must be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells
Must be knighted and trained by another knight of atleast 3rd level in this class

Personally I think we need to throw the old standards of prerequisite design out of the window...

I would completely eschew mechanical prerequisites, and just go with narrative prerequisites.

If a prestige class directly boosts some feature normally gained previously (from a base class), then it's ok to have it as a prerequisite, but it's mostly to avoid someone to accidentally choose a prestige class that wouldn't work. But you can also have the prestige class grant such feature itself! (That's actually what 5e feats do: instead of requiring you to be proficient in heavy armor, a "heavy armor master" feat grants you such proficiency if you don't have it already - although this might have changed in the PHB)

For example, in your example the Bladesinger keeps progressing in spellcasting each level, so when you enter the 1st level you also learn more spells and get daily slots. But it could also be that you start here, as a 1st level Wizard for example.

It depends of course on the concept, but I would rather go with the narrative... Instead of requiring "able to cast 2nd level arcane spells", I'd make it so that the Bladesingers usually invite into their ranks only individuals who already have some generic arcane skills (but there can be exceptions).

---

The real balancing factor to consider is the minimum level to enter. Once you fix this, you can gauge the value of the prestige class features against features of equivalent levels in a base class.

For instance, if you decide that Bladesinger should be entered normally at 11th level minimum, and be a 5-level class, then you can "balance" those 5 features (assuming you get 1 per level) against 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th level features of a few base classes.

But because of that, it would be so much simpler to go straight to the point and say "prerequisite: 11th level". It saves a lot of work, it's more clear to the players, and it doesn't lose anything interesting about the prestige class.

 

[CrashFiend82]

I completely agree with Li Shenron, many of favorite prestige classes where full of RP material and often gave my PC and increased feel to thelarger setting. While thematically they may have looked liked backgrounds it would not fit becuase you gain them in play. Conversly however I did feel in 3.5 there were a lot of prestige classes that were out of balance which led to them not actually increasing diversity IMO. Secondly when cross class prestige classes were made it could and often did lead to players to level "dip" or stray from their intended concept just to gain access. While I know there is not a perfect system I hope we don't see a rehash of the old one.

 

[the Jester]

I've been wondering how easy it will be to use a combination of organization-based bonuses and feats to emulate old prestige classes.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

As Li Shanon Said:

I would completely eschew mechanical prerequisites, and just go with narrative prerequisites.

This is the direction I'd go. I'd have a prestige class be about 80% dependent upon in-game background, role-playing and other non-mechanics stuff. For example, a "Knight of Myth Drannor" prestige class may have requirements like:

• Character must have survived/lived in the ruins for a minimum of 1 year.
• Character must have discovered at least one secret lost to that place.
• Character must have made friendly contact with another KoMD and agreed to take on a Rite of Acceptance (quest), and succeeded.

This takes almost ALL of the min/maxing, numbers-crunching, instantly-becoming poo out of the picture. Nothing sucks the life out of a PrC like a player gaining a level, spending 10 minutes looking through the books, and then just saying "Huh...I have the stats and stuff to be a Knight of Myth Drannor. Sure...I'll take that". Having played his character for a dozen levels, with no interest at ALL in knights of Myth Drannor, having never been there, maybe not even really knowing anything about them, but because he makes the stats...he's off to the races! *fume*

So, make them "in-game, campaign/story based" things and I think we'll have a winner. But do down the same "have these numbers and your golden" lameness and it will be a horrible blow to the vibe and momentum that 5e seems to be generating.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[1of3]

I'm not sure that prestige classes are useful. They were used for several reasons in 3.x
a) Make a mechanical inferior concept viable (Dagger Master)
b) Allow for better multiclassing (Mystic Theurge)
c) Offer specialised concepts related to a class (Oracle)
d) Allow for a specialisation applying to several classes (Tempest)
e) Represent certain societies within the game world (Purple Dragon Knight, Red Wizard)

Solving A with further crunch is not a good way to do it, IMO.
B was about spellcasters and is hardly a probem due to the new multiclassing rules.
C is nowadays subclasses.
D is easily handled with feats. Of course, feats are optional, but multiclassing is optional, too, and feats are probably less contentious. And the Arcane Archer feat in the playtest was a nice proof of concept.


Now for E, it is on another level from the other points and follows another logic. Feats, subclasses and multiclassing are dependent on XP and level progression. Becoming a member of the Purple Dragon Knights is dependent on the story.

If the benefits of prestigious memberships are modeled with class levels or feats, there might be strange occurences like, being trained in the order but not having the level ready to actually get the benefit.

A better way to model it would be the Boons from 4e. Boons are special abilities that are handed out during play. They are under GM control, much like treasure is. Now this can be easily done in 5e. Boons can be awarded a rarity much like magic items.

For example:

Red Wizards of Thay
The Red Wizards follow a stricter tradition than other wizards and are more specialised than others.

Boon: Focused Specialist
Rarity: Uncommon
Prerequisite: This boon is taught by the Red Wizards of Thay, when a Wizard apprentice has finished his or her studies (usually level 4) and is deemed worthy. The Red Wizards do not look kindly on deserters.
Marks: Upon initiation, the apprentices have their heads shaved and receive typical tatoos.
Effect: When you receive this boon, choose two schools of magic other than your specialised school. These are your forbidden schools. As long as you do not prepare spells from your forbidden schools, you gain an additional point towards or Arcane Recovery class features. At level 10 you receive two points, at level 16 three points. If you do prepare spells from your forbidden schools, you loose this benefit for one week.

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm not sure that prestige classes are useful. They were used for several reasons in 3.x
a) Make a mechanical inferior concept viable (Dagger Master)
b) Allow for better multiclassing (Mystic Theurge)
c) Offer specialised concepts related to a class (Oracle)
d) Allow for a specialisation applying to several classes (Tempest)
e) Represent certain societies within the game world (Purple Dragon Knight, Red Wizard)

Solving A with further crunch is not a good way to do it, IMO.
B was about spellcasters and is hardly a probem due to the new multiclassing rules.
C is nowadays subclasses.
D is easily handled with feats. Of course, feats are optional, but multiclassing is optional, too, and feats are probably less contentious. And the Arcane Archer feat in the playtest was a nice proof of concept.


Now for E, it is on another level from the other points and follows another logic. Feats, subclasses and multiclassing are dependent on XP and level progression. Becoming a member of the Purple Dragon Knights is dependent on the story....

I agree completely on points A-B-C.

For point D, there can be practical problems using feats. Not always of course, it depends on what character concept you are trying to implement.

In core 3e prestige classes there aren't many good examples, because so many of them actually fall in the A-B-C groups. Perhaps the only exception is the Shadowdancer. It is still somewhat Rogue-oriented, but it could have also applied to Monks, Rangers, Wizards, Sorcerers and more if you want. There was a hint about being tied to membership in "The Shadowdancers" group. So at least the way I see is, this is a character concept that is fairly unique and we don't want limited to one class.

Now it all depends on what do you want to design mechanically for this class. Of course this is up to you... so if you're fine with 3-4 abilities that can be stuffed into a feat chain, that's ok. (Notice: Arcane Archer was made a single feat, but practically reduced to just one special ability.)

Sometimes however, you may have a lot of ideas for such class, so the feat chain will get quite long, and since you typically get a feat every ~4 levels (except Fighters), you'll be pushing characters very high up in levels if you want to see the latest features of that concept come into play. Once again, sometimes this will be ok, some other times not.

The prestige class mechanic gives you the opportunity to grant features in a series of consecutive levels. So I can totally se cases where I might want someone joining an elite group "Knights of the XYZ" for which I have many mechanical ideas, and get that character accrue those abilities quickly (rather than every 4 levels) so that we'll use them all in play (without having to go too high in levels, which not everybody likes).

Boons give you total design freedom, but they kind of force you to give them to every PC, since they are on top of everything else. Doesn't work fair if Bob the Fighter joins the Knights of XYZ, nobody else joins anybody (because by the story, they don't), and Bob gets boons all the time while the others get nothing (as you say, just like magic items).

---

Bottom line: we're talking about homebrew work, so we choose whatever mechanical solution that works best for us!

I just wanted to say that IMO the idea of prestige classes must not be discarded a-priori (especially because they don't need a lot of the irritating baggage of 3e prestige classes... we don't need to bother about BAB, ST, skill points and spellcasting progressions for instance!).

In my case, converting 3e/d20 Rokugan material for 5e, I've already encountered 3e prestige classes that seem perfect to be converted into 5e subclasses, others that are more easily turned into feats, and others that would work better as a series of class levels starting after 1st i.e. prestige classes.

 

[1of3]

Boons give you total design freedom, but they kind of force you to give them to every PC, since they are on top of everything else. Doesn't work fair if Bob the Fighter joins the Knights of XYZ, nobody else joins anybody (because by the story, they don't), and Bob gets boons all the time while the others get nothing (as you say, just like magic items).

You can of course give Bob membership in the Knights who say Ni and that nice magic crystall ball to the wizard, mixing and matching boons and items. That can be especially useful, if some players enjoy items more and some more are more into "internal" stuff. I really enjoyed the flexibility in 4e. But yes, it's extra.

 

[jadrax]

In core 3e prestige classes there aren't many good examples, because so many of them actually fall in the A-B-C groups. Perhaps the only exception is the Shadowdancer. It is still somewhat Rogue-oriented, but it could have also applied to Monks, Rangers, Wizards, Sorcerers and more if you want. There was a hint about being tied to membership in "The Shadowdancers" group. So at least the way I see is, this is a character concept that is fairly unique and we don't want limited to one class.

Note that in the PHB, Shadowdancers are explicitly mentioned as Monks with the Way of Shadows sub-class.