D&D 5E Why play a low-level Fighter when the Barbarian is so much better?

[Tony Vargas]

Where does it say that? Previous guidance I saw was 2-3 tougher encounters, not 6-8 easier encounters

The Basic DM pdf says the typical adventuring party should be able to handle 6-8 medium to hard encounters per day.

Consistently less than that (like 4 or 2-3) and, yes, classes that concentrate power in dailies will become overpowered relative to those that don't. If there are more /rounds/ in each encounter that'd mitigate some daily abilities, but not others (those that last all encounter, or potentially so with Concentration, for instance).

(Much more than 8 encounters seems improbable, but the reverse would presumably be true if a campaign consistently had around a dozen encounters a day.)

 

[Sacrosanct]

Step 1. Go to the DMG where it gives the encounter building guidelines.
Step 2. Actually read those guidelines.
Step 3. Realize that 3 deadly encounters per day or 5 hard encounters per day are within these guidelines.
Step 4. Realize that 6-8 encounters per day is a myth

Easy and medium difficulty encounters are both so trivially easy that any party with half a brain will completely steamroll them. For the most part, I don't find that fun. As a player, I want encounters to be challenging where the outcome isn't entirely certain. As a DM, I don't want to waste time designing an encounter whose sole purpose is to chip away at party resources. If there is an encounter, I want it to be meaningful.

Page 58 from the Basic DMG:

"...most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day."

But most importantly, the point I'm trying to make is that if you are playing in a style different from the expectation of the rules, you need to understand that's you making changes, and you can't fault the game because you're deviating from said expected playstyle*. Most of us do it. I certainly have houserules. For example, it also clearly states (and is common sense) that even easy or medium encounters will take away some party resources. Especially if you have a DM that doesn't run the monsters as mindless bags of hit points but runs them like they would probably normally act** If you just skip all of those and give the PCs an auto-win with no loss of resources, your houserule is stacking the cards in the benefit of the PCs, especially those who have limited big-shot abilities.


*the expected play is most certainly not one of "just skip all easy and medium encounters."

** for example, I have several encounters with kobolds when the party is around level 4-5 when they meet them. But the kobolds do a bunch of hit and run ambush tactics, liberal use of traps and environment, and tactics that have made those "technically very easy encounters from an XP budget rule" into fairly challenging ones in actual play.

I also disagree with your assumption that an encounter has to be hard to be meaningful. This an RPG, not arena combat. THere's lots of things that go into making an encounter meaningful beyond how many HP are lost on both sides. Are enemies made? Did opponents flee and alert others? Did you capture and interrogate an enemy for info? The list is nearly endless

 

[KarinsDad]

Sounds fine, if you don't mind being a level behind getting maneuvers, feats, second and third attack, etc. compared to a straight fighter.

True.

But, 19 levels where the PC can face the toughest melee foes without needing as much healing (plus +2 damage) for twice as long per encounter is huge.

Most fights are not as challenging individually. Yes, PCs get damaged, but the fights are merely a resource hog. PCs win the vast majority of fights without a single PC death. Some fights take up more resources, some less.

It's the super nasty fights against seriously tough foes (like Dragons or other legendary creatures) where PC death is a strong possibility. Having the ability to go into 2 tough fights a day with a huge durability makes up for one level of missed something else. Getting +2 to Strength one level later? That's a level of -1 to hit (1 attack in 20) and -1 damage 4 to 6 encounters a day (vs. +2 damage 2 encounters a day). The damage is a wash and -1 to hit is one miss in maybe 6 encounters at level 4 (1 in 3 at level 8). That's white noise compared to standing up to a Dragon and being able to survive for almost twice as long.

And when the Rage is over, there is less fighter healing that has to be done, saving party healing resources.

This is huge. It dulls the pain of the more serious non-caster battles (assuming the player saves the rage for when it is really needed).

Interestingly, one of the players in our group (who has only played D&D since January) noticed this right off the bat and is playing a Fighter 1 / Barb 1 / Fighter X in our campaign. While trying to decide on a PC, this jumped out at him right away after reading the Fighter and Barbarian sections.

 

[KarinsDad]

Where does it say that? Previous guidance I saw was 2-3 tougher encounters, not 6-8 easier encounters.

I'm also dubious about some of the other comparison points, like AC, but alas my PHB is at home, not here.

DMG Basic Rules, 6-8 medium to hard encounters per day is considered the average.

I do not buy this (straight out of the box PCs do not have enough resources per day to handle this IMO), but that's what it says.

 

[Ashkelon]

DMG Basic Rules, 6-8 medium to hard encounters per day is considered the average.

I do not buy this (straight out of the box PCs do not have enough resources per day to handle this IMO), but that's what it says.

It says that, but the numbers don't support their claim. Usually 5 or fewer hard encounters is over the XP budget for the day.

At level 14 (randomly picked) for example, 6 medium encounters is the whole XP budget for the day. Only 3.94 Hard encounters is the entire xp budget and for the day. Just 2.24 deadly encounters is the entire XP budget.

So 6-8 encounters per day is clearly not what will happen if you actually follow the encounter building guidelines.

 

[KarinsDad]

It says that, but the numbers don't support their claim. 5 hard encounters is over the XP budget for the day.

Yup. At level one:

12 easy or 6 medium or 4 hard or 3 deadly.

At level 5:

14 easy or 7 medium or 5 hard or 3 deadly.

At level 12:

11.5 easy or 6 medium or 4 hard or 2.5 deadly.


I wonder if they meant 6-8 medium instead of 6-8 medium or hard. A medium is defined as up to x XP, so > easy, <= medium.

 

[Mistwell]

Note: You only have 6-8 combats per day if you use medium and easy difficulty encounters. IMHO, medium and easy difficulty encounters aren't even worth running.

Say what now?

What kind of game are you running, that easy and medium difficulty encounters are "not even worth running"?

 

[Ashkelon]

Say what now?

What kind of game are you running, that easy and medium difficulty encounters are "not even worth running"?

I mean that from a player side, I do not find them worth the time. They are generally so trivial that our party is able to steamroll them. They are fights that our party will clearly win and do so within just a few rounds of combat. They serve no other purpose than to drain our resources.

I prefer when combats are meaningful. I prefer when combats are dangerous. I prefer to have fights that could actually end up with the party losing or needing to run away. Easy and medium encounters just don't do that for me in 5e.

 

[KarinsDad]

Say what now?

What kind of game are you running, that easy and medium difficulty encounters are "not even worth running"?

Well, I do not agree with him on the medium encounters, but easy encounters are easy because either the PCs are fighting the equivalent of multiple minions, or they are fighting just a few foes that 2 PCs or so can take down in a single round.

A one or at most two round minion fight, to me, is boring. Instead of the players coming up with good ways to use their abilities, it's mostly just hack and slash, fight over.

An easy fight has its place thematically, but they are a waste of time at the table at times. Mopping through multiple encounters of mooks doesn't allow the players to shine, it allows the players to roll dice. Meh.


Player: "Woo Hoo!! I criticaled."
DM: "Don't bother rolling damage, they have 4 hit points."

Very anti-climatic.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Action Surge is a once per day ability that only gives one turn's effect. As for second wind, if they're out of armour, the fighter is going to be hit more. That and the half damage ability more than make up for it.

Action Surge is per short rest. You might want to look for threads discussing how some people think Action Surge is overpowered.

Of course, Action Surge's power is dependent to some extent on how many short rests you have in a day, just like some of the barbarian's power is dependent on number of encounters.