D&D 5E Non-Proficient Saves

[Agamon]

So are you saying "So what? All of those DMs gotta learn that the new system is killer for surprise. Buck up or hand the reigns off to someone else."?

Not everything encountered has an ability that can take a couple PCs out of the fight during surprise. But if they do, I think it's pretty easy for an experienced DM to put two and two together.

Back in the older editions, surprising a party with a bunch of a ghouls or a carrion crawler or a pack of wights or a gorgon or even a rust monster was bad news. Nothing's changed.

 

[KarinsDad]

Back in the older editions, surprising a party with a bunch of a ghouls or a carrion crawler or a pack of wights or a gorgon or even a rust monster was bad news. Nothing's changed.

I think 5 or 6 years of 4E might have dulled some DMing instincts, at least mine. 4E was, for all practical purposes, a joke compared to earlier versions. Things were either deadly because the DM was throwing in encounters 4 levels higher, or because players made really bad mistakes.

We (or at least I) tend to forget the days when a group of PCs were exploring a Barrow Mound and they just knew that there were level draining undead in it, dreading to open a door. It used to be tense at times.


But even in 2E, the worst class to best class save deltas at level 17 was 7 for PPD, 3 for RSW, 4 for PP, 6 for BW and 3 for spells at level 17 with typical stat modifier deltas of 0 to 3 which did not apply to all saves. The mean save deltas (i.e average difference between any two classes) were 5 for PPD, 1 for RSW, 1 for PP, 3 for BW and 1 for spells at level 17

Everyone had similar saves with a few outliers.

5E has a 6 for the save delta and -1 to 5 for the stat modifier deltas.

2E, the typical delta range between best save and worst save is 1 to 6 (with a few outliers).
5E, the typical delta range between best save and worst save is 6 to 8 (with a few outliers).

There are no 5E classes with 1 to 3 difference for the base delta like there are in 2E.

So yeah, mathematically, this is a lot harsher of a difference. So, it might take some DMs by surprise. Granted, 3E save deltas were a lot closer to 5E deltas, but I do remember a lot of talk about that back in the day as well.


With bounded accuracy, I thought the concept was to flatten this stuff out some, but the weak saves are a case where the difference between best and worse on a D20 is really substantial, not much different than in 3E or 4E. The difference is that it is 4 out of 6 saves now, not 1 out of 3 (although some 3E classes had 2 out of 3 weak saves, but they made up for it somewhat with personal buff spells or multiclassing).

 

[TheGorramBatman]

With bounded accuracy, I thought the concept was to flatten this stuff out some, but the weak saves are a case where the difference between best and worse on a D20 is really substantial, not much different than in 3E or 4E. The difference is that it is 4 out of 6 saves now, not 1 out of 3 (although some 3E classes had 2 out of 3 weak saves, but they made up for it somewhat with personal buff spells or multiclassing).

...or they made up for it by being terrible at virtually everything (e.g. Fighter/Rogue).

The save situation doesn't look too bad for me, but I never graduated to 4th edition. The situation in 3.5 and 3.P at high levels is in a fairly similar boat between the haves and have nots of high/low saves. Having a base +6 against save DCs capable of being in the low 30s is pretty brutal.

So while I don't think things look worse than the games I'm used to playing, I am disappointed that it doesn't look better. Save DCs potentially being autofail* is not a fun game mechanic. Getting to "reroll" my autofail save every round isn't much of a consolation prize.

We will see how things go. I'm sure once we get a better idea of the magic item types/frequency, the situation may change a bit. I wouldn't be opposed to giving players half their proficiency bonus on non proficient save bonuses if things end up pretty bad.

*I found a paragraph stating that a 20 on an attack roll is always a hit and a 1 on an attack roll is always a miss. I have not found a paragraph stating the same for saving throws or ability checks (which there probably isn't. It works this way in Pathfinder as well). This could easily lead to characters with the default array or point buy in autofail situations at high level.

 

[Connorsrpg]

So rather than have players and PCs make defensive choices in the game, you just give it to them.

Again, if you know you are bad at some saves DO SOMETHING about it. I am not inclined to just say, 'Awww, how about we give you ALL a bonus?'

Have them play for that bonus in play. Leave the choice to encourage them to save that Adv for defense, rather than spend it on attack all the time. Actually CHOOSE the many options available for increasing low saves if you are really worried about them: There are feats which I 'know are optional', but there are MANY other class options, racial combos, and Heaven forbid, use you Ability Score bonuses to cover your weaknesses if you are that worried about them.

Fortunately, I play with players that expect trouble vs particular types of creatures. On the flip side, monsters now have weaknesses too.

Again - I see these disparities as a strength. I disliked where everyone practically had to roll close to the same number for every situation.

Trying to make those difficult save adds tension in our group and we have always enjoyed it.

 

[Paraxis]

If this becomes an issue I think I would rather patch it with magic items as a test and see how that works.

Ring of Ironwill: the wearer of this ring gains half his proficiency bonus to Int, Wis, and Cha saves.

Ring of Physical Conditioning: the wearer of this ring gains half his proficiency bonus to Str, Con, and Dex saves.

Amulet of the Bear: you are considered proficient in strength saves and you can reroll one strength based roll per day.

Amulet of the Cat: you are considered proficient in dexterity saves and you can reroll one dexterity based roll per day.

Amulet of the Boar: you are considered proficient in constitution saves and you can reroll one constitution based roll per day.

Amulet of the Fox: you are considered proficient in intelligence saves and you can reroll one intelligence based roll per day.

Amulet of the Owl: you are considered proficient in wisdom saves and you can reroll one wisdom based roll per day.

Amulet of the Eagle: you are considered proficient in charisma saves and you can reroll one charisma based roll per day.

Belt of Safety: you gain advantage on the first saving throw you make, this ability resets with a short rest.

 

[Quartz]

One of my house rules in 3.5E was that all base saves were (Level /2 round down) + class bonus (+2 Fort for fighters, etc), so there was only ever a difference of 2.

 

[Connorsrpg]

So just about all rolls by everyone need to be the same at all levels? May as well flip a coin. Give good saves 2 flips.

 

[Tormyr]

One thing I have not seen mentioned so far is that these creatures all have a CR value. If they have some sort of devastating ability, they are nerfed somewhere else compared to other creatures of a similar CR. An obvious example is an NPC wizard. They have less than half the hit points of a fighter of a similar CR to balance out their game changing spells. The mage in the basic DMG is a CR6 creature. He has fireball, greater invisibility, ice storm and cone of cold, but a level 6 party should be able to deal with him without too much trouble. An even higher level party should be able to take care of him and his friends in a straightforward manner.
At higher levels, scarier enemy abilities become available, but dealing with different adversities is what makes the game interesting from encounter to encounter. If a character is poisoned/stunned/unconscious, someone can help them. If a character dies/gets banished due to a cheap shot, the DM can easily make a side quest to bring that person back. And saving a dead/banished character can be a story unto itself.

No character should be able to handle everything. Each class has their saves where they shine and those where they should be scared %^&!less. It is the job of those who made the save to carry those who did not until they recover.


A rough guide for DC values is 8 + primary ability modifier + proficiency. In general most (not all) creatures stay within the 20 abiliity range. So a CR 20 creature will have a save DC of 8 + 5 + 6 = 19. A level 20 PC proficient in the save and maxed out on the primary stat will have a +11 modifier. They need to roll an 8 to save. They will make it about 2/3 of the time. Even a non-proficient level 1 character will make it about 10% of the time. Looking at how the saves scale, the proficient character who has a similar primary ability modifier and proficiency bonus to the enemy will generally always have to roll an 8 or better to save. This is roughly true from level 1 to 20. The non proficient character will steadily get worse. They will go from needing a 13 to needing a 19. I don't have a problem with that. They are focusing on getting better elsewhere as they level up, and they are losing ground to those enemies that are specializing in improving their DC stats. If the player wants to improve the save bonuses, there are several in game ways to do this apart from giving a free bonus to saves. One of the core parts of 5e is shining in one area while having a flaw in another. If players wants to improve their saves, they need to sacrifice advancement somewhere else.

 

[Joe Liker]

I see no reason to modify the system, for reasons already mentioned by others:

• PCs should have meaningful weaknesses.
• The tendency to "dump stat" has consequences.
• Magic items will likely exist to boost specific saves.
• Save-boosting spells and other options already exist.

Mostly, I like the idea that there's real danger in the game. If your character is bad at Con saves, he or she has a compelling reason to avoid any kind of poisonous creature, even the low-level ones. That's actually very cool.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I think a "jack of all saves" feat would be worthwhile.

Guarded: Add half your proficiency bonus to all saving throws you are not proficient in.