Chess is not an RPG: The Illusion of Game Balance

That belief didn't even exist prior to the Big Model. That's what I'm saying. I believe you are being honest with me. You aren't pretending what you have typed here. The ideas in that one true wayism have become so ingrained as to be believed as basic certainty. So I posted what I posted. Conflict resolution never actually occurs at the gaming table. That is a theory and one that doesn't relate to games because the players aren't in conflict necessarily. Conflict is a player judgement. Not an absolute as it is in that theory.

Attack rolls are random number generations which determine the results within a predetermined game system. You move around a game board after the roll. That's what occurs behind the screen.

Meh. I am not worried about origins. Talking about a 'resolution mechanic' is just an easy way for referencing any kind of roll for resolving outcome in games. I find it handy and don't associate it with any particular set of ideas about gaming. Pretty sure I encountered the term long before the big model developed. Like I said I have zero interest in game theory and even less interest in the big model.
 

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I'm not seeing anything to respond to here, but I need to log off anyways.

I'm not sure what responses I could give you later. It does sound like MLWM may be a game system, but not one that supports roleplaying. And I completely disagree on your role for GMs. That's a failure of a great game design made into no game content where players game another person.
 



[MENTION=3192]howandwhy99[/MENTION] - Dog is not a role play. Pretending to be a dog in a park catching a frisbee is role play. Doctor is not a role play. Pretending (or actually being I suppose) a doctor in a hospital dealing with patients is role play. It appears that you are confusing role with role play. The two are certainly not synonymous.

So, I ask again, can you give me an example of role play that does not involve character, setting and plot? I honestly can't think of one.

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On another note, there are three major issues I'm drawing here.

1. Howandwhy's definitions would include Microsoft Flight Simulator as a role playing game. It's pure math and your job playing the game is to game the game to succeed. You have a role - a pilot, and a game. Ok, fine. But, this breaks down when the same definition then excludes any version of Dungeons and Dragons. That's a pretty hard row to hoe if you want to have a definition of role playing game that doesn't account for D&D.

2. H&W's history is severely lacking. He comments that the idea of playing a fictional persona was added in the 80's. This is flat out false. Anecdotes from Gygax's table disprove that, as well as the genesis of Dragonlance, which was played in the 70's before being published in the 80's. Role playing requiring or at least being enhanced by, taking on a fictional persona was part of the game from day one. Reread the accounts of the Braunstein games and you can see this. Never mind Blackmoor or other examples. Playing in pure Avatar Stance has been possible since day one, but, certainly not the only way to play.

Heck, Gygax mentions the need to fudge die rolls in the 1e DMG. If results are not to the DM's liking, the DM is advised to over rule the rolls. That's not an impartial Referee as H&W is characterising it.

3. By making continuous connections between those that disagree with him and fascists and doublethink, any claim to academic standards goes straight out the window. He's essentially Godwinned himself by doing this and repeatedly characterising those that disagree with him as either uneducated, or guilty of ulterior motives instead of actually providing any substantial proof of his claims.
[MENTION=3192]howandwhy99[/MENTION] - it's time to either piddle or get off the pot. Show me your proof. Give me examples of role play that does not require all the elements of a story. Games? Oh, hey, games don't need stories at all. There's certainly no narrative (small n, not the Forge term) involved or assumed in Tic Tac Toe or Poker or Chess or Monopoly. In fact, a narrative wouldn't make much sense in those cases other than a simple relating of the events that occurred during the game. There is no "in game fiction" to talk about. A role playing game will always (at least as far as I can think) have an in game fiction that is distinct from the actions of the players.
 

Give me an example of a role play that lacks setting, character and plot. Because, if you have those three, then you have story. Every single role play, whether in game form or as a teaching tool, clearly has all three. "Student A, you are a waiter, Student B, you are the customer, Student B, using your English skills, order lunch from the menu at the restaurant. Student A, take Student B's order".

That's a story. That has every single element of a story. There's nothing not a story about that.

So, instead of telling me that role playing is not about stories, show me. Give me examples of what you mean, because, I've been gaming for over thirty years and been a teacher for more than half of that, and I'm going to tell you that it's not possible to role play without a story.

I'm not sure that's a correct definition of story. It's a scene or situation on which a story might evolve or contain. I'd have to ask an English Major.

But I do agree with your most recent post, that H&W's line of discussion isn't being fruitful. The onus is on the guy with the very unusual view of the situation to make it relevant to the everybody else. Otherwise, it's just not productive.
 

My dog is a setting, character, and plot. So are we. Your map isn't reality. Stop demanding I disprove your beliefs as obviously false. You can project your stubborn understanding onto everything. You can stop doing that. Me making you stop is a waste of both of our time. Open your mind and quit banging on the drum of "Story Now, Story Always, Story Only!"

I think this is a fair point and it is why I say you CAN describe in game events as "story" but you do not have to. Basically everyone here is dealing with different models for understanding what is going on at the table, but models are just that, a framework for talking about something, they are not the thing itself.

Like HowandWhy points out, I am not a story, you are not a story. Nor are we narratives. Even the events of my morning do not equate to a narrative. Right now, in my kitchen there are characters, location and "plot" (in the sense of things occurring). But there isn't a narrative. A narrative is constructed by a mind to relate what is going on. However it isn't the only way to talk about it. Narrative is one of many modes available.

Or look at history. The events of the past are not themselves stories or narratives, historians construct narratives after the fact based on evidence that includes primary accounts. But narrative is not the only way to deal with history. Not all history books employ narrative. Narrative is one way of writing about history, a fine and entertaining way, but there is also the analytical approach for example. These are just frameworks though, methods of understanding, they are not the events of history themselves. A sandbox player often looks at the events in a game, the way a historian might look at the events of history. They don't view the events themselves as stories, they view them as events and after the fact a story or narrative can be constructed.

Again, I get what people mean when they equate "dragon attacks village" with plot or story. And I use those words my self in every day conversation but there is a difference between that very broad usage of the word story and the more specific usage of of narrative. I think once you start equivocating on that broad usage to mean something much more specific like "narrative" or say literature with themes, etc, in order to show that games should do X or Y, or that GMs should do X or Y, you are getting into the territory of sophistry. If you conceive of games as stories that is great, and that doesn't detract from them being RPGs. However that doesn't mean everyone has to see them that way. And this is important because as we saw earlier the leap was made from "dragon attacking village is a story" to good sandboxes should tell good stories (and the example given of finding one's sister because it was part of the background the player had given is one most sandbox players would reject as a good sandbox). And I think the problem boils down to ideas about narrative control. They are being conceived of way too broadly here. If narrative control simply means "power" then it is so broad it has no meaning at all. That isn't what gamers mean when they use the term. No one thinks they have narrative control simply because they attacked the goblin. But more importantly if the player attacking the goblin is simply doing so because that was his honest response to the situation, and not some attempt to direct the "story" in a particular direction, then he isn't trying to assert narrative control through his character. That isn't his aim or purpose. He is not thinking of the game in terms of story.

Keep in mind the tables could just as easily be flipped. One could talk about all RPGs as simulation if one wanted to (simulation of reality, simulation of genre physics, simulation of story structure, etc). This would be just as easy to do as talking about RPGs strictly as story because it is a model with categories and models with categories can be overlaid on anything if you insist on them. But I think doing so would be counter productive, because even though I can conceive of all RPGs as trying to simulate something, I don't think people who play narrative RPGs for example regard themselves as doing that. These are just ways talking about things in reality, they are not reality itself. When we forget that and start imposing ideas of play on people, what are we doing except promoting another onetrueway approach?
 

I'm not sure that's a correct definition of story. It's a scene or situation on which a story might evolve or contain. I'd have to ask an English Major.

I wasn't an English major either, maybe they have a particularly broad definition of story, but this is my issue with this as well. Location, plot and character may indeed describe a story but it also describes my morning commute or the events surrounding the release of Jeffrey Fowle. That describes too many things that are not themselves stories (though they could be rendered as stories). If the definition of story is so broad that nearly everything is a story, that doesn't seem particularly useful to me.
 
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I wasn't an English major either, maybe they have a particularly broad definition of story, but this is my issue with this as well. Location, plot and character may indeed describe a story but it also describes my morning commute or the events surrounding the release of Jeffrey Fowle. That describes too many things that are not themselves stories (though they could be rendered as stories). If the definition of story is so broad that nearly everything is a story, that doesn't seem particularly useful to me.

I suspect key communciation issues are happening. Hussar sticking to "It's a story!" and H&W's "It's CodeBreaking!" isn't functionally useful or so broad that nobody gets it.

My experience with RPGs is that a GM gives you situational or environmental information and as a player, you tell him what the response of your character is to that. The options a player has are constrained to what his character in the game can do (skills, gear, etc). The player can't choose to disintegrate the wall, if he doesn't have the ability.

The player is always reacting/responding to the most recent described game state. I say always, because the GM effectively speaks first. he describes the campaign world, says where your PC starts the game. A player can't jump in and say "I attack the goblin on the left and then gather my army to conquer The Shire!" before the GM ever speaks because he doesn't know if there Shire even exists in this campaign or whether there's any goblins nearby.

I'm certain a story can come out of that, I certainly run my games that way.
I'm certain there's a bit of simulation going on, though how "realistic" is a matter of chosen ruleset
I'm certain there's code-breaking going on when I put in clues and such that the players need to realize exist and interpret them.

But it's not any one absolute. Choosing to attack the goblin on the left isn't a story. It's not breaking a code, it's just common response to a stimulus or threat. It's probably more simulation during that point in the game as we use rules to resolve how a fight ends, instead of going into the back yard with real weapons.

There's probably RPGs that give players some "Narrative Control" to make story things happen "I play my Long Lost Nemesis card on the orc, making him the guy who's behind all the kidnappings." This sort of overrides the traditional GM role in deciding stuff like that. I don't know what games specifically do stuff like this, but it's definitely a change from the simplistic "Respond to Game State" process that I described as common to RPGs I've seen.
 
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There's probably RPGs that give players some "Narrative Control" to make story things happen "I play my Long Lost Nemesis card on the orc, making him the guy who's behind all the kidnappings." This sort of overrides the traditional GM role in deciding stuff like that. I don't know what games specifically do stuff like this, but it's definitely a change from the simplistic "Respond to Game State" process that I described as common to RPGs I've seen.

TORG did some of that, though it was relatively tame: the Connection card let you declare that there was a contact of yours in the area, subject to GM approval. Primetime Adventures has no GM, and anyone can declare anything not about another PC, subject only to a random draw if someone else demands it. I'm sure there's stuff in between, but nothing particularly notable is jumping to mind right now.
 

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