D&D 5E D&D Basic DM rules updated

[Scorpio616]

Unless you're planning to play a warlock.

It is especially helpful for a warlock player so they don't form unreasonable expectations!

 

[casterblaster]

"It doesn't matter if they do not get it perfect the first few times. Besides which, cold or hot dice will throw off encounter balance just as well as anything else."

This is very true, my PC's easily took out a boss in the starter set but nearly had a TPK in a random encounter all due to bad dice rolls.

 

[mcbobbo]

Encounter design, along with DMing in general, has always been both art and science.

 

[Mark CMG]

The DM has to ask, "Are these skeletons going to significantly contribute to the difficulty of this encounter?" If all 12 will be flattened by a fireball without doing anything to the PCs, then the answer is, "No."

If encounters are only thought of in discrete and isolated units, perhaps, but given they are part of an overall adventure, and using that fireball during this encounter means potentially increasing the difficulty of other encounters, I do not see things as this simple. Authorities, Heroes, and Trolls: It's why cult leaders have many followers, evil clerics have hordes of undead, and RPG designers hope to have legions of active fans.

 

[Tormyr]

If encounters are only thought of in discrete and isolated units, perhaps, but given they are part of an overall adventure, and using that fireball during this encounter means potentially increasing the difficulty of other encounters, I do not see things as this simple. Authorities, Heroes, and Trolls: It's why cult leaders have many followers, evil clerics have hordes of undead, and RPG designers hope to have legions of active fans.

Except determining the difficulty of an encounter is a process taken in a vacuum. Then you take all of your easy, medium, hard, and deadly encounters and arrange them so they work together. You might find that one or two encounters need to be tweaked for the adventure as a whole to work together, but the difficulty of an encounter is determined as a discrete unit.

 

[Mark CMG]

You might find that one or two encounters need to be tweaked for the adventure as a whole to work together

Yup.

(. . .) but the difficulty of an encounter is determined as a discrete unit.

That's where we disagree. I believe an encounter's level of difficulty needs to be flexible dependent upon the other encounters. Sometimes a previous encounter can make a subsequent encounter more or less difficult (depending on the resources expended or the treasures gained) and, at other times, the bypassing of an encounter can make a subsequent encounter more easy or difficult for the same parenthetical reasons.

 

[Iosue]

A while back, I asked Mike Mearls on Twitter, "Thinking of houseruling that adjusted encounter XP = actual XP. Any reason why this isn't RAW? Any pitfalls to be aware of?"

He replied, "It makes hordes of weaker creatures a more appealing fight, if players metagame that. Not game breaking."

 

[Jhaelen]

Besides which, cold or hot dice will throw off encounter balance just as well as anything else.

Umm. Surely you wouldn't suggest giving out more xp for an encounter because it turned out to be more difficult than it 'should have been'? Basically that would mean to reward players for playing badly.

Imho, encounters _must_ be judged in isolation to assign them an 'objective' difficulty. If the players decide to take on another encounter after exhausting all of their resources rather than resting first, that's not something that should be taken in account when determining the difficulty. It might only be different if the DM doesn't give them a choice, e.g. by stringing encounters without the possibility of resting.

 

[mcbobbo]

Umm. Surely you wouldn't suggest giving out more xp for an encounter because it turned out to be more difficult than it 'should have been'? Basically that would mean to reward players for playing badly.

Imho, encounters _must_ be judged in isolation to assign them an 'objective' difficulty. If the players decide to take on another encounter after exhausting all of their resources rather than resting first, that's not something that should be taken in account when determining the difficulty. It might only be different if the DM doesn't give them a choice, e.g. by stringing encounters without the possibility of resting.

In a Pavlov/Skinner context you're certainly right to be concerned. You should only reward behavior you want to see again.

But from an educational perspective, I could see the logic in learning more when you have fewer resources.

 

[Tormyr]

Umm. Surely you wouldn't suggest giving out more xp for an encounter because it turned out to be more difficult than it 'should have been'? Basically that would mean to reward players for playing badly.

Imho, encounters _must_ be judged in isolation to assign them an 'objective' difficulty. If the players decide to take on another encounter after exhausting all of their resources rather than resting first, that's not something that should be taken in account when determining the difficulty. It might only be different if the DM doesn't give them a choice, e.g. by stringing encounters without the possibility of resting.

How on earth would you get that I think more XP should be rewarded from that quote? I was responding to how a newer DM would judge whether to include low CR monsters in the encounter building analysis of difficulty. I gave some examples and mentioned that even if they get it wrong, if they are using the guidelines, it will likely be only one difficulty off.

That has nothing to do with reward XP. Reward XP is not adjusted (unless you decide to make it so). The lich and skeletons will be worth the same reward XP regardless of whether you include the skeletons in the encounter building XP.

The dice remark was referring to whether a new DM was incorrect in their analysis and whether it mattered. Even if they were wrong, they would generally only be wrong by a bit, and hot or cold dice could make the normal encounter difficulty irrelevant. I have seen weak enemies lay low a party, and I have seen the finale boss not get a hit to connect because of the dice. Hot or cold dice are a factor of luck, not whether the players are playing badly.

I was the person arguing that the difficulty of an encounter is evaluated on its own, and then all of the encounters are evaluated together to make sure the adventure is providing an appropriate challenge for the adventuring day. While that can affect how well prepared a party is, it does not change whether an encounter is easy, medium, hard or deadly by the encounter guidelines. You need to look to other posts to find those that think the difficulty evaluation of an encounter changes based on other encounters around it. Even then, I think we were pretty much saying the same thing. I just am willing to evaluate an encounter on its own merits first before looking at how it integrates into the rest of the adventuring day. If something happens in game to make that encounter more difficult or easy, so be it.