D&D 5E Experience with Legendary Resistance: How is it working for you?

[Jack99]

I would like someone with actual experience against Legendary Creatures with legendary resistance at higher level...between 5th and 15th?

The opponent did have Legendary Actions. The Darkness was a legendary action. It attacked on other character's turns. Martials, especially fighters, can do a lot of damage in a short amount of time. Action Surge burst damage hammered it. We were level 5. 3rd level is the highest spell available. The creature did hit hard. So did the party. The monster is in a module. Not interested in giving away spoilers because it is unnecessary to answer the question.

A group with bless can hammer on a Legendary Creature missing very rarely. The bless spell is very, very powerful. A fighter can wander up use Feinting Attack with bless hitting for 2d6+13 with Great Weapon Mastery. Bless allows him to tee off with Great Weapon Mastery for a lot of damage. A smiting Paladin hammers for a lot of damage quickly and if he uses Vow of Enmity he gets advantage on every attack. Even the darkness reduced him to regular attacks rolls.

Buffing the party was highly effective. Casting spells on the creature not so much until its hit points were lot enough to be affected by sleep.

I'm asking people with experience if this is also what is happening at higher level. Do wizards or casters have to rely on no save spells waiting for the martials to do enough damage to put them in sleep or similar type magic range? Due to Legendary Resistance, I feel my natural tactical options are to hit the creature with low level save or suck spells hoping it fails and is forced to use Legendary Resistance to set up a higher level attack. It appears to force a player into a meta-gaming situation where he must use player knowledge to effectively use his character. It seems like a very strange mechanic forcing a certain type of player rather than character tactical choice that lessens role-playing well. A wizard or other caster must feel absolutely pathetic having his best spells resisted automatically every single time he faces a Legendary Creature. I expected Legendary Creatures to have high saves, and they do, but to auto-save is basically a message to casters that "Your spells will never work unless they don't allow saves against a Legendary Creature." Three saves is huge in a fight of that kind where every class is going all out with their class abilities to win.

IME (players are level 12, almost 13) this is how it is. The solo/legendary monsters work (very) well, and can hold their own against a party. If they are truly alone, you do need a monster of a CR that is above that of the characters, but you do not need to go outside the xp/encounter guidelines in order to create a great combat.

We have had (at least) 3 legendary fights, one with a dragon, one with a beholder and one against a fey hag based on one of the sphinxes from the MM. All fights have been extremely close, and in all fights the spell-caster in the party has had a decisive role, without completely dominating the fight. One fight he was buffing the melees and dispelling darknesses, in the other he used wall of force to prevent a TPK and allow the group to regroup and heal a bit and in the last fight, he.. well now that I think about it, I can't quite remember. So yes, there are some tendencies towards spell-casters struggling somewhat with those kind of fights. Or perhaps, it would be more accurate to say that they no longer dominate all those fights, as they have had a tendency to do earlier. In other words, they might not (always) get the "killing" blow, but they surely still seem to be a vital part of the party, even against legendary creatures.

 

[Joe Liker]

I think the main problem with legendary monsters, as pointed out by Boarstorm and others, is that all monsters of every type die so quickly. If your wizard felt left out of that fight, it's because he only got one chance to deal damage in what was supposed to be an epic battle.

The party I'm DMing is just now to the point where legendary monsters are a reasonable option, but I'm already running into the problem where any solo-type monster I throw at them will either be able to one-shot them with its limited-use attacks (because its CR is too high), or else it will die in two rounds (because its CR is too low). There just doesn't seem to be any middle ground.

I know its best to create additional challenge by including minions in the fight, but sometimes you just want a solo fight for narrative reasons. When that's the case, I haven't found a good way to provide it that isn't anticlimactic or maliciously deadly.

 

[Gadget]

I apologize that I don't have experience with higher levels and Legendary Monsters, but I still don't see the 'problem' here.

Buffing the party was highly effective. Casting spells on the creature not so much until its hit points were lot enough to be affected by sleep.

I think this is the whole point of Legendary Resistance. I don't think it takes a whole lot of in play experience to come to this conclusion. It seems obvious that you do not wish to use spells that require a save against such monsters, save perhaps the save-for-half-damage variety may still be useful. No more just Save or Sucking the Dragon away with a good spell and poor roll by the DM. I'm not sure how 'meta-game' it is for your character to know that he/she is facing a 'Legendary Creature', and that they are highly resistant to spells that can be resisted (i.e. allow a saving throw). That is why wizards in stories tend to get the hero with the shinny magic sword to do in the Dragon for them. I think you raise a good point that maybe Legendary Creatures may have a bit too much of glass jaw, going by your description, but that seems to be a different issue than the one you are concerned about.

I'm asking people with experience if this is also what is happening at higher level. Do wizards or casters have to rely on no save spells waiting for the martials to do enough damage to put them in sleep or similar type magic range? Due to Legendary Resistance, I feel my natural tactical options are to hit the creature with low level save or suck spells hoping it fails and is forced to use Legendary Resistance to set up a higher level attack. It appears to force a player into a meta-gaming situation where he must use player knowledge to effectively use his character. It seems like a very strange mechanic forcing a certain type of player rather than character tactical choice that lessens role-playing well. A wizard or other caster must feel absolutely pathetic having his best spells resisted automatically every single time he faces a Legendary Creature. I expected Legendary Creatures to have high saves, and they do, but to auto-save is basically a message to casters that "Your spells will never work unless they don't allow saves against a Legendary Creature." Three saves is huge in a fight of that kind where every class is going all out with their class abilities to win.

It seems to me that this is exactly what Legendary Resistance is designed to do. Once again, I don't see how it is 'meta-game' knowledge for your character to know that Dragons and the like are highly magical creatures and are not likely to be overcome by spells that can be saved against. Let me ask you this, if one of your high level, allows-a-save spells landed, would it make the fight largely trivial? Even your example seemed to make it out that the creature quickly crumpled under the focus fire attacks of the party. Just stun-locking such a creature for one round could neutralize the encounter when done at the right time. I could see the complaint if every other encounter was against such a foe, but, as I understand it, these monsters are to be used judiciously, even at high levels.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I think the fight described went very well - everyone contributed, I dont see an issue. Yes casters will have to hammer away with save spells to use up the legendary resistance, but that is a necessary evil in my view - it would be worse if the BBEG simply fell to a hold monster and the epic end fights instead dissipates in a whisper.

I think the OP's party has two of the biggest hitters in the game, GWF fighter and smiting paladin, and the best buffer: bard. Of course they were going to tear that BBEG a new one! For a party like that, the DM needs to adjust monsters to fit the power level of his particular table; ie give it max HP, or throw 2 of them in, or throw in minions, or lair actions, or something.

But to get back on point, yes I expect casters against legendaries will tend to use spells other than save or die, because they will mostly be negated. There are many other options however, damage, buffing, no save spells (sleep, forcecage, walls, magic missile, etc), summons. On the other hand with 2 casters, you could draw our the legendary saves in only 2 rounds if you were lucky..?

Hmm in fact I would say legendary resistance should go a little further than it does. If a spell doesnt normally allow a save, eg sleep or forcecage, I think legendary resistance should give the monster a normal save (not an auto save). But that is a theory crafting personal preference right now.

Overall I feel the legendary mechanics are more good than bad. I should note I havent run such a creature yet, so, ah yup.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I'd still like to know what sort of legendary creature is just sitting in a room waiting for the party to run in and attack it, and what sort of creature has those legendary abilities. Yes, I admit it. I'm very curious to know what they were fighting against.

 

[Stalker0]

It isn't true because 4 CR7 creatures provide a medium encounter for 4 20th level PCs.

This to me is ultimate more important to get experience on.

If this turns out to be true in play, then I am a lot less worried about LR...as it will be the rare fight.

However, if experience shows this to not be the case, and you do in fact need higher level monsters to demonstrate an actual challenge...then their could be issue.

 

[Celtavian]

IME (players are level 12, almost 13) this is how it is. The solo/legendary monsters work (very) well, and can hold their own against a party. If they are truly alone, you do need a monster of a CR that is above that of the characters, but you do not need to go outside the xp/encounter guidelines in order to create a great combat.

We have had (at least) 3 legendary fights, one with a dragon, one with a beholder and one against a fey hag based on one of the sphinxes from the MM. All fights have been extremely close, and in all fights the spell-caster in the party has had a decisive role, without completely dominating the fight. One fight he was buffing the melees and dispelling darknesses, in the other he used wall of force to prevent a TPK and allow the group to regroup and heal a bit and in the last fight, he.. well now that I think about it, I can't quite remember. So yes, there are some tendencies towards spell-casters struggling somewhat with those kind of fights. Or perhaps, it would be more accurate to say that they no longer dominate all those fights, as they have had a tendency to do earlier. In other words, they might not (always) get the "killing" blow, but they surely still seem to be a vital part of the party, even against legendary creatures.

Thanks. That's what I'm looking for.

My wizard did do only 15 points, but it was 15 points that counted. It did bring the guy down into sleep range. She was hammering the fighter and paladin. They weren't going to stand long at all. I'm going to have to get used to the idea that no strong spells will land on a Legendary Creature. I've always played "timing is everything" with my casters, so that won't be a change. I have to admit that a single humanoid-type enemy standing 3 or 4 rounds against us at level 5 was pretty impressive. We usually wipe the ground with the low level brute stuff in 3E. We're a very organized, tactical, and maximized group as far as capabilities go. The Legendary Creature had us a little surprised and worried. The AoE spell I cast was able to hit her quite well inside the darkness. That was messing up the melee badly.

 

[Celtavian]

I think the main problem with legendary monsters, as pointed out by Boarstorm and others, is that all monsters of every type die so quickly. If your wizard felt left out of that fight, it's because he only got one chance to deal damage in what was supposed to be an epic battle.

The party I'm DMing is just now to the point where legendary monsters are a reasonable option, but I'm already running into the problem where any solo-type monster I throw at them will either be able to one-shot them with its limited-use attacks (because its CR is too high), or else it will die in two rounds (because its CR is too low). There just doesn't seem to be any middle ground.

I know its best to create additional challenge by including minions in the fight, but sometimes you just want a solo fight for narrative reasons. When that's the case, I haven't found a good way to provide it that isn't anticlimactic or maliciously deadly.

The solo creature was quite tough. If we hadn't killed it in 3 or 4 rounds, it would have killed us. It was doing a lot of damage. The healer could not keep up. The fighter had to Disengage and fall back from the fight to allow me to cast a fireball. Sculpt Spells only works if you can see the PCs to shape the AoE around them. Pretty potent Legendary Creature.

I can see a higher level Legendary Creature with more hit points being a huge problem. Damage does not increase much with level. The fighter won't get another damage bump until level 11. Even then it will be another 2d6+4 or 5, almost double when he can use Great Weapon Mastery. If a creature has 300 hit points, he's not going down quick. I've seen some of those high level creatures. They can do a lot of damage quick. Heck, the level 5 legendary creature did a lot of damage quick. That is with him missing a couple of times.

 

[Blackwarder]

Just a quick note, remember that the monsters in the MM (and probably most published adventures) have average HP. I have had great fun differentiating between the same critters by using different HP values, in one of my first games I had elite goblins by simply using max HP, same goes for Legendary creatures, wants the fight to last longer? use higher HP values.

As for the OP, I don't really see the problem (beside the fact that i don't see what kind of solo monster they fought) the wizard cast one spell and the party kicked ass in 3 rounds, beside the fact that it paint the Legendary creature as weak but once again, since we don't know what it was we can't really say if t is or isn't.

Warder

 

[Celtavian]

It seems to me that this is exactly what Legendary Resistance is designed to do. Once again, I don't see how it is 'meta-game' knowledge for your character to know that Dragons and the like are highly magical creatures and are not likely to be overcome by spells that can be saved against. Let me ask you this, if one of your high level, allows-a-save spells landed, would it make the fight largely trivial? Even your example seemed to make it out that the creature quickly crumpled under the focus fire attacks of the party. Just stun-locking such a creature for one round could neutralize the encounter when done at the right time. I could see the complaint if every other encounter was against such a foe, but, as I understand it, these monsters are to be used judiciously, even at high levels.

No. It would have done 31 points instead of 15 points. It was a fireball. It would not have made the fight trivial.

It depends on the spell. A missed save on a polymorph or petrification spell could make a fight trivial. A missed save on an enchantment spell is a mixed bag. So many enchantment spells allow additional saves on damage or each turn, it might only slow things down for a round or two. Helpful, but not trivial, especially if it still has lair actions. A missed save on a damaging spells is the difference between half damage and full damage. Given how much damage martials do, that is a significant difference. For example, chain lightning does 12d6 or an average of 42 points to a single target with a 6th level spell slot of which I get two a day. If he saves, it does 21 points. Bless does not help spells without attack rolls.

The fighter did 48 points at level 5 with action surge. Something he can use every short rest. He had used it three times that day at level 5. When he gets 3 attacks, it will double the effectiveness of Action Surge. There are no saves against his attacks.

It kind of depends on what we're fighting. Legendary Resistance puts a premium on damage and buffing and pretty much makes it hard to land anything with a save effect (which is hard anyway with save every round and high saves for Legendary Creatures). Thus you have to focus your selection of spells. Might be worse for a warlock or sorcerer with fewer overall spells to select from. Though Warlocks have Eldritch Blast which can be quite a potent attack and is affected by bless.