D&D 4E JamesonCourage's First 4e Session

[JamesonCourage]

Not a problem. Your efforts and this thread is one of the few reasons I'm inclined toward visiting this board anymore. So glad to help and read of your adventures.

I love hearing that, and I'm glad I gave 4e a go.

Good stuff. One of the great things about the Themes and Paragon Paths of 4e is how thematically provocative most (but not all) are and how richly they are tie into the conflicts and antagonists that 4e puts front and center. With those 3 PPs, I'm sure you'll have plenty to work with.

With The Raven Queen (and thus Orcus, Vecna, etc.), the Far Realm (Underdark, aberrants, etc.), and dwarves / Kord (and thus Moradin, storms, battle, etc.), I have tons of stuff to work on. It easily gives me guidance for things the players have expressed an interest in based on their choices. 4e does have lots of stitched together stuff, which really helps here... Kord Clan (an article from Insider) even talks about how Kord is tied to The Raven Queen (how convenient for my group!).

I find that forcing the PCs to deal with threats that they can't hack away at (eg they have to deal by deploying tactical countermeasures - eg Medium Acrobatics check - or preemptive strategy) becomes a better and better expenditure of your encounter budget XP as the game progresses:

a) It lowers the total HPs required to burn through to "win" an encounter.

b) If the hazards/traps are appropriately synergized (thematically and mechanically) with the rest of the encounter, it forces the players to think "one or two moves down the line" and approach the resolution of the encounter through vectors beyond DEPLOY MOAR HURT; eg they avoid this or that, because it hurts and its action economy doesn't go away at 0 HP...because it doesn't have any HP, while they are doing this other thing.

c) Keeps fights mobile and interactive as they're supposed to be in 4e.

I must remember these things. So many good tips in this thread for me right now...

They do. Just keep in mind to use something like (Encounter Power - Free Action - roll ST at the start of your next turn) sparingly and only for important bad guys. You want to reward the deft use of control effects, but "named" bad guys should have abilities to at least attempt to shrug one off now and again (so it doesn't disproportionately impact a fight coupled with a big nova round).

Noted!

For instance:

1 level 8 Elite Swarm (which is an abstract form of a commander and a bunch of his shock troops) @ 700 xp.

At Bloodied, break it out into the Standard (Leader) commander (350 xp) who is at Bloodied and 4 minions (88 xp apiece * 4 = 352 xp or ~ 350) for the final standoff between the (worn down or maybe rallying) good guys and the BBG and his troops.

Oh, interesting. I'd thought of "on death, leave a minion," but not "on bloodied, break it down." That's awesome. Thanks.

If you don't mind, I'm going to copy and paste (and sblock) a post that I did on another thread (of which I didn't care to respond to the response because [a] it was unresponsive and it was probably too off-topic and I didn't want to derail further). It will be helpful here to convey my thoughts (which I'll try to sum up at the bottom).

[/SNIP]

Or not Either way, enjoy.

I never mind stuff like this! I think it's better than having them pick minor quests directly, but they seem harder to "resolve", you know? Like, "Saerie has much to teach me about the ways of this world" is going to take a long time to resolve. And "Saerie and I share a common enemy. We will not rest until they are utterly defeated" seems more like a major quest, doesn't it?

Now, I let them choose their own major quests last time. They were a little uncomfortable with it (and the Scout / Knight had to have me make suggestions to do that). These bonds are kind of like statements, which seems easier, but how do I go about making them short term (and thus resolvable as minor quests)? Any ideas?

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

I wonder if we could edit the advice into this thread into a new DM's guide for 4E?

There really is some great stuff here.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Indeed

 

[Manbearcat]

I love hearing that, and I'm glad I gave 4e a go.

Ditto!

I never mind stuff like this! I think it's better than having them pick minor quests directly, but they seem harder to "resolve", you know? Like, "Saerie has much to teach me about the ways of this world" is going to take a long time to resolve. And "Saerie and I share a common enemy. We will not rest until they are utterly defeated" seems more like a major quest, doesn't it?

In DW, bonds are reflected upon by the players involved and the GM to determine if they've been resolved. If they've been resolved, you mark xp and scribe a new bond. Bonds also serve a function in the resolution of certain moves (eg Aid) whereby your roll 2d6 + bond for your outcome.

I agree with your take on the above with respect to 4e. Within the infrastructure of 4e it would be like this:

Minor Quest (Repeatable): "Saerie has much to teach me about the ways of this world."

With 4e, at end of session, I'd basically do as we did in DW and review Minor Quests with the players (including the above) to see if something was resolved. Something like the above might be a repeatable Minor Quest ("ticked" each time the players agree that Saerie has taught Otthor something notable about the ways of this world) and, as such, an ongoing theme of play.

"Saerie and I share a common enemy. We will not rest until they are utterly defeated."

I agree that this would certainly be a Major Quest in 4e.

Now, I let them choose their own major quests last time. They were a little uncomfortable with it (and the Scout / Knight had to have me make suggestions to do that). These bonds are kind of like statements, which seems easier, but how do I go about making them short term (and thus resolvable as minor quests)? Any ideas?

I think I may have answered this with the above? For the most part, you would just want to pick alignment statements or bonds that are have some temporal or spatial immediacy to them or don't bring about absolute closure/are repeatable. Something like vanquishing the major antagonist or saving the kingdom is obviously an unrepeatable major quest. However, (looking at a few of the alignment statements and bonds in the SRD), these below (amongst plenty of others) could easily be recurring themes:

- Fulfill a promise of import.
- Bring someone to justice.
- Choose honor over personal gain.
- Ignore danger to aid another.
- Break an unjust law to benefit another.
- Use magic to influence another.
- < > does not understand the wilds of this place, so I will teach him.
- < > saved my life. I will return the favor.
- The layfolk of < > are brave souls, I have much to learn from them.
- I will protect the weak against the tyranny of evil men.

 

[JamesonCourage]

In DW, bonds are reflected upon by the players involved and the GM to determine if they've been resolved. If they've been resolved, you mark xp and scribe a new bond.

I agree with your take on the above with respect to 4e. Within the infrastructure of 4e it would be like this:

With 4e, at end of session, I'd basically do as we did in DW and review Minor Quests with the players (including the above) to see if something was resolved. Something like the above might be a repeatable Minor Quest ("ticked" each time the players agree that Saerie has taught Otthor something notable about the ways of this world) and, as such, an ongoing theme of play.

This sounds really similar to how I started out prodding them. I could potentially set this up on their end... I'll definitely think about it over the next couple sessions before they hit Paragon.

I think I may have answered this with the above?

I think you did, and thank you for the examples. I hope it helps others, too

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

Agreed, [MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION]. Thanks, [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION].

 

[pemerton]

Yeah, the way I've worked it is the Heroic tier adventurers are fighting fairly 'mundane' sorts of bad guys. They may well have supernatural abilities of some sort, but like the PCs they don't teleport into a castle, fly long distances regularly, or that sort of thing. If they do for example fly its a fairly natural thing like stirges.

<snip>

As they graduate into paragon they are now fighting a more fantastic type of foe. They begin to discover the overall shape of the campaign arc. Certain foreshadowed things begin to take shape. The characters are embarking on their paragon paths

<snip>

When the reach epic, then their destinies are clear, they are agents of something, movers and shakers in a world where they may well be the most powerful beings to have arisen in many centuries

I think the Tier system really allows the DM to have a focused progression that helps with the organization of games. Epic is the most difficult because I really think that most players and DMs have too small of a scale of what is truly EPIC. Paragon was a lot of fun for me.

I've had several groups make it to Paragon level. With the last group I did something a bit different that made a huge difference for our play experience. I asked them when they reached 8th or 9th level to tell me what paragon path they were going to choose at 11th level.

This all seems sensible to me.

For my players, there were different degrees of foreshadowing of paragon paths and epic destinies. The most extreme paragon path was the demonskin adept, and he started collected demon skins around 8th or 9th level. The fighte who changed his multi-class from warlord to cleric also gave a pretty clear signal about his intention to become a warpriest.

The ranger becamse a battlefield archer, and the paladin a questing knight. These were very natural evolutions that needed little foreshadowing.

At epic monsters are almost a meaningless thing in terms of a challenge. You CAN eventually pound the characters into oblivion with enough firepower of course, but no reasonable tactical setup that falls strictly within the bounds of the monster manuals and such will really present a very interesting fight.

Personally I haven't found this, but I'm pretty happy to run level +4-to-6 encounters back to back. And a virtually on-level encounter fighting a dragon and a drake from the PCs' newly acquired Thundercloud Tower was pretty dramatic as well.

But I agree that plot matters - these fights need to be motivated - and also that terrain etc matters - in the dragon fight the fighter leapt out onto the dragon's back and then drove it to the ground (by attacking it with a power that knocked it prone). And our game is currently freeze-framed between sessions in a fight with a horde of slaads led by Ygorl, Lord of Entropy - and in that fight most of the PCs also are in the tower, but the fighter once again is out in the middle of things, slaad-surfing. (Because it is the Elemental Chaos, the slaads can use their familiarity with subjective dimensional gravity to ride the waves of chaos.)

 

[MoutonRustique]

... the fighter once again is out in the middle of things, slaad-surfing. (Because it is the Elemental Chaos, the slaads can use their familiarity with subjective dimensional gravity to ride the waves of chaos.)

I am tempted to steal this phrase and use it when people wonder what EPIC levels should be about.

subjective dimensional gravity to ride the waves of chaos ... man, that belongs in a metal song of some kind - or a hippy song! (Ever noticed how the themes of certain kinds of metal and "hippy music" are pretty much the same? Mind mellowed AND blown!) [insert face of Keanu Reeves with quote : "Whoa!..."]

 

[JamesonCourage]

Aaaaand, of course my Scout player picked a Paragon Path that I didn't expect. But good times will be had by all!

Also, a question. He chose Hunter's Thorn Trap as his level 10 power:

Hunter's Thorn Trap
Encounter Primal, Zone
Minor Action Ranged 10
Target: One square
Effect: The target becomes a zone that lasts until the end of the encounter or until an enemy enters it. Without a Perception check (DC 10 + your level + your Wisdom modifier), your enemies notice neither the zone nor your use of this power. When an enemy enters the zone, the enemy takes 5 + your Wisdom modifier damage, and it is immobilized until the end of your next turn.

If the Scout uses this while adjacent to enemies, does he provoke if they fail their Perception check (since it's a Ranged power)? When he asked, my answer was initially no, since they didn't notice. I then revised it to "yes, it'd provoke while you 'just stood there' or the like, but they wouldn't know what you had done." I know that the ruling won't break the game either way, but any thoughts on it?

 

[D'karr]

Aaaaand, of course my Scout player picked a Paragon Path that I didn't expect. But good times will be had by all!

Also, a question. He chose Hunter's Thorn Trap as his level 10 power:

If the Scout uses this while adjacent to enemies, does he provoke if they fail their Perception check (since it's a Ranged power)? When he asked, my answer was initially no, since they didn't notice. I then revised it to "yes, it'd provoke while you 'just stood there' or the like, but they wouldn't know what you had done." I know that the ruling won't break the game either way, but any thoughts on it?

RAW I would say it provokes because it's ranged. However because of two things, I would make that a yes only if the perception check is successful. 1. it is a minor action and 2. it is meant to be hidden (trap). BTW that would have to be a passive perception check to notice the "trapsetting" because obviously the action is occurring on the Ranger's turn not on the opponent's.

I view this almost like the ranger taking a glance towards the target square and making a sigil almost imperceptibly in less than a second. The Ranger is not really taking his focus off the opponent for concentrating on the target to make an attack. Since the opponent does not notice the quick lack of attention, it does not get the free attack.

That's how I would rule on this one.