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D&D 5E Honor & Sanity

Why does "honor" have to be called out as though it were exclusively an "Asian-inspired" thing?

I mean-- seriously, sounds like it would double as a general "reputation" and "trustworthiness" which could apply just as equally to a European-inspired game as an Asian one without even calling Knights into question.

And moreover, the Asian "knights" are the only ones who fictionally devoted their whole lives to the concepts such as honor. The fictionalized Warrior Kings of the Three Kingdoms and the fictionalized Samurai histories-- i.e. KNIGHTS. In most cases, one wouldn't be wrong to assign the Paladin class to them.

Beyond them, everyone else in historical Asia acted pretty much in accordance with their self-interests or by a religious doctrine or just by ideals set out by philosophers.

Seriously-- what is it with this subsection of gamers and game designers who obsess about turning Asian people into strange alien creatures with little resemblance to proper humans? The cultures of Mongolia, India, China and Japan are practically indistinguishable from those of Persia, Rome, France and England once you remove the differences in art, language and the details of the religion from the mix. They are certainly a lot more similar than what people in Southern Africa, Australia or the Americas were up to.
 

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And I have said again and again that Legend of the Five Rings is a game made by ignorant people based on bad racist stereotypes about Japanese people and is offensively wrong in damn near every single aspect of their world and characterization. Why continue to spread such viciously negative stereotypes about a group of people? You know, that really undermines the supposed "inclusiveness" concept they were pretending they intended to push this edition.

Or should we expect something in the game to suggest that if you are going to make an "African-inspired" game, canabalism and kidnapping white women ought to be central game concepts? Because it is no less offensive to do that.
 

Why does "honor" have to be called out as though it were exclusively an "Asian-inspired" thing?

I mean-- seriously, sounds like it would double as a general "reputation" and "trustworthiness" which could apply just as equally to a European-inspired game as an Asian one without even calling Knights into question.

Could. But it's a genre-thing. Not always appropriate.

Seriously-- what is it with this subsection of gamers and game designers who obsess about turning Asian people into strange alien creatures with little resemblance to proper humans? The cultures of Mongolia, India, China and Japan are practically indistinguishable from those of Persia, Rome, France and England once you remove the differences in art, language and the details of the religion from the mix. They are certainly a lot more similar than what people in Southern Africa, Australia or the Americas were up to.

I don't think anyone is saying that Asian cultures are strange an alien, just that there's a lot of media set within Asia that deals with concepts of honor so, you know, if you wanted to make a campaign based off of the half of the things on this page that happen to be set within Asia or made by Asians, that could be a useful game mechanic for that feel.

Plus, you might want to look up the idea of Shame Societies and Guilt Societies at some point. And then think about if morality in those stories comes from the person or from the society in whicih they are embedded. And then for extra fun, think about Japan's crime rate and why American media loves the Kardashians. ;)

But here it's not "In order to roleplay as an Asian, you must have an Honor score because this is a real-world biological difference between people," it is "Here is something that might be useful for emulating pulpy samurai movies from the 70's."
 

I don't think anyone is saying that Asian cultures are strange an alien, just that there's a lot of media set within Asia that deals with concepts of honor so, you know, if you wanted to make a campaign based off of the half of the things on this page that happen to be set within Asia or made by Asians, that could be a useful game mechanic for that feel.

Plus, you might want to look up the idea of Shame Societies and Guilt Societies at some point. And then think about if morality in those stories comes from the person or from the society in whicih they are embedded. And then for extra fun, think about Japan's crime rate and why American media loves the Kardashians. ;)

But here it's not "In order to roleplay as an Asian, you must have an Honor score because this is a real-world biological difference between people," it is "Here is something that might be useful for emulating pulpy samurai movies from the 70's."

Except... you are.
If you don't think there are Japanese equivalents to the Kardassians, you don't know much about Japanese celebrities. They love scandal. There are magazines put out every week blasting the scandals of various celebrities. The worse some act, the more attention they gain.

The truth is-- the "honor" thing is all a matter of translation. You REALLY don't think that concept exists just as strongly in the West?

From the launching of a thousand ships towards Troy to retrieve one woman and a siege upon the walled city of Jericho without any siege weapons (and systematic slaughter of all living things in the city) to the men who fought impossible odds at the Alamo or by Custards' side to the men who ran up the hill at Iwo Jima just to plant a flag when still surrounded by enemy fire or the Russians men who charged the Nazi lines and kept fighting even when it cost half the lives of the men of that nation (some even going in there unarmed expecting to loot the bodies of dead friends or foes alike to arm themselves!).

There are countless stories in the west of family feuds, some of which go too far (Romeo & Juliet) but just as often vengeance for one's family is considered righteous. Hell, it is probably the #1 motivation for pulp heroes today-- the Phantom, Batman, Punisher to Kill Bill and Inglorious Bastards... Just as often are stories of missions passed on from fathers to sons or from uncles to nephews, taking up the dreams of one's family after they fall is by no means limited to Japanese stories.

There is no difference except translation. Somehow if one were translating from Japanese or Chinese, the tendency is to write "honor, honor, honor, honor" all over these things to express the motivation of every person who chooses to take on something with little to no hope of victory and risking ones life in violent pitched battle-- whether it be out of loyalty to one's nation, obedience to one's tribal leader, adherence to one's religion, living up to or redeeming one's family's name, wronging another in order to "even the score" against them having wronged you....

The thing is that when it is done in western stories you describe all these various things with different words to describe the different shades of these motivations. Patriotism, loyalty, obedience, faith, duty, justice, vengeance, redemption... oh, and PRIDE. PRIDE is a BIG one. Probably half the time you claim a Japanese person is acting out of "honor", you would describe the same person from any other culture acting out of pride. But once the person you are talking about is Japanese, you ball it all up into one word "honor" and attribute that to the only possible motivation that anyone who is Japanese could possibly have rather than giving them the same nuisance you would if you were talking about a nonJapanese subject.

On the other hand, the only time I have heard Japanese people in a modern day setting prattle on about "honor" it was those written by white people. I've seen several dozen dramas made by Japanese for Japanese in Japan, I have lived in Japan for 5 years and I swear I have never once heard the word "honor" used ever. Only very rarely do I hear it in period pieces set during wartime. It is just white people who think Japanese use the word every third sentence they speak. Seriously-- it is a racists stereotype. Take any Japanese person written by a white person and see how long they can go before saying the word "honor". Maybe it occasionally comes up in a period piece, but even then it is RARE compared to when white people are writing it.

But, more to the point, just because there is a tendency to use a dozen words to describe the same motivations when talking about western people in no way means that the overall concept is valued any less or any less lionized. It is quite clearly just as important to Americans and Europeans and they have just as much disdain for people who display a lack of it.

Hell-- that ought to have been starkly clear with Americans saying things like "You are either with us or against us!" and plastering "I support the troops!!" everywhere indicating that once a single soldier had been sent to war, the entire nation must be 100% in favor of the war and contribute to the war in every way possible or was otherwise a traitor to the nation. There is nothing even remotely approaching that mentality in modern Japan-- so, frankly, it would be more true to say Americans are far more obsessed with "honor" than Japanese are. You just avoid calling it that.
 
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"Chivalry and Sorcery" was one of the 1980s games emerging shortly after D&D. It had a system for tracking how closely PCs followed a code of chivalry. I dunno how accurate it was to any particular historical European culture, region and era, but it was accurate to the *legend* stories of Morte d'Arthur and the story of the Sangraal. Gary Gygax never established a point system for tracking the "honor" rating of paladins because... well, because that's how he rolled; instead he gave us the table for randomly determining the shapes of demon's noses.

Insofar as anyone gets their idea of Japanese culture from pop culture - whether written by non-Japanese (eg James Bond in "You Only Live Twice", not a paragon of realistic cinema) or by Japanese (eg "Seven Samurai" and other Kurosawa movies) - Hobgoblin's got a valid point about distinguishing between reality, fiction, and idealization, and the tendency to see cultures in terms of simple stereotypes. Which can include one's own culture; I'm a USA native, and I doubt that "High Noon" gives a full and realistic picture of that particular region and era of USA history, and I'm absolutely sure that "Wild Wild West" is historically inaccurate. If you don't know the distinction between gimu and giri, for example, or the difference between Buddhism and Shinto, or the relationship between emperor and shogun, then your fictional samurai-ninja setting and stories will probably have a high ratio of stereotypes to accuracy.

On another hand, any game with wujen casting spells from spell slots is modeled on *fiction*. If you want a game setting that's based on the Japan of "You Only Live Twice", well, have fun with that, but do please keep in mind, that's not what modern Japan is actually like. If you want a game setting that's based on the Japan of "Princess Mononoke", have fun with that, but do please keep in mind, that's not what ancient Japan was actually like.

PS Insofar as Japan defines itself less in terms of its military, now, than it did in the Tojo administration, I'm totally fine with that. Just sayin'.
 

It's interesting that the 5e designers decided to handle Honor and Sanity as ability scores.

I am not sure this is going to work smoothly, but in general I appreciate the idea of using an existing framework instead of adding more ad-hoc rules. On the other hand, I've been using d20 Rokugan's own Honor ad-hoc system and IMO it was very nice: there you didn't make Honor checks, but instead Honor worked a little bit like alignment, in the sense that it was primarily a roleplay guide (also to determine reactions to you, but typically without rolls, at least for us). Furthermore, Honor could increase or decrease depending on your actions, i.e. simply by doing honorable or dishonorable things. I can't imagine this to work very well with Honor as an ability score.

Sanity sounds easier to make it work, the only issue is that I would expect a normal person to be maximally sane, while as an ability score it represents something different i.e. your ability to resist or overcome some effects (by making ST and checks). It's not the same thing... you'll get some people with high Sanity score to be very resistant and people with low Sanity score to be vulnerable. This is ok, but it is not the same as being sane vs being mad. Conceivable, one PC might be sane but vulnerable, and another might be already a bit mad but resistant to further progress into madness.

"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself... Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will." - Bujold

Yes, how to represent "perceived honor" is a common issue in games with honor.

You know, that really undermines the supposed "inclusiveness" concept they were pretending they intended to push this edition.

L5R or Rokugan are not part of D&D 5e.
 


Except... you are.
If you don't think there are Japanese equivalents to the Kardassians, you don't know much about Japanese celebrities. They love scandal. There are magazines put out every week blasting the scandals of various celebrities. The worse some act, the more attention they gain.

No one's saying there aren't equivalents. What I am saying is that social control in cultures can be distinguished based on whether the primary means is extrinsic (ie, what would people think about me) or intrinsic (ie, what would I think about me). I note that you use the word "scandal" and note that this is not how American media views it. But for a more in-depth look at this, you need to read the actual scholarship. It's an academic detour from talkin' 'bout elves on the internet.

The truth is-- the "honor" thing is all a matter of translation. You REALLY don't think that concept exists just as strongly in the West?

No one said anything remotely similar to this.

What was said is that an honor mechanic might be useful in the emulation of certain genres. The DMG notes "a campaign shaped by a strict code of honor" and "a rigid code of honor is part of daily life" and that it "fits well in a setting inspired by Asian cultures...also useful in any campaign that revolves around orders of knights."

Which I take to ultimately mean, "It's useful for emulating pulpy Samurai movies."

If you take it ultimately to mean, "Asians are exotic and alien creatures!", I think you are getting a major head of steam to engage in an internet fight over something nobody is actually saying.
 

my first thought is to play a 9 attribute game that is a thinly vailed Star wars rip off... honor and sanity and purity that would make it 3 physical (str,dex,con) 3 mental (int, wis, san) and 3 social (cha hon, pur) could be interesting... maybe retweek the idea of alignment and bonds a bit...
 

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