D&D 5E How does Surprise work in 5e?

[Dausuul]

So your going to have the PCs shot at with muskets and you don't think they'd be surprised enough to cost them a round of actions?

When they have a bunch of pirates standing openly in front of them, demanding information and a hostage? If they're surprised by a sneak attack in that situation, they're morons.

 

[Hriston]

When they have a bunch of pirates standing openly in front of them, demanding information and a hostage? If they're surprised by a sneak attack in that situation, they're morons.

If they're morons that may account for the low perception scores they must have for no one in the party to be able to detect the snipers. Seriously, if the players are suspicious about the intentions of the pirates they'd be moronic not to make active perception checks of the surrounding woods. Depending on the size of the party, one of them is bound to hear or see something. If not, when the snipers open fire it would come as a surprise IMO.

 

[Azrothan]

Surprise is a powerful tool and is basically working as intended as written. In order to surprise members of the party the visible/noticed threat needs to attempt to be sneaky. Otherwise the ambushers just have the hidden attacker advantage.
Perhaps spice my thoughts up with a deception roll for the visible threat if they have attempted to look like something they are not. The more chances the party has at detecting the ambush, the more epic it will be when they fail.

 

[Hriston]

Does your reading of the rules imply that my interpretation would not be possible? For example, several folks have suggested that since the PCs are aware of the main force of bandits (pirates), then the smaller force cannot surprise the PCs; rather, they can only be hidden. Is that your contention?

Or do you actually believe that my example in post #53 makes sense narratively? That being surprised should allow any number of non-ambushers to wail on the surprised character that first roundecause they are so discombobulated from the sniper fire?

If you're maintaining the later, well, I am bewildered.

I am indeed maintaining the latter and here's why: "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." I read "a threat" as "any threat", so even though there is an obvious threat right in front of them I dont think that would prevent them from being surprised when the threat that they didn't account for reveals itself. In fact having the pirates right in front of them might actually distract them as a diversion, which I seem to remember was part of the set up for this encounter.



I think this may come down to a preference in playstyle. I tend to be the "jerk-type DM" who prefers a grittier style whereas I'm getting the idea that many who do not like the RAW approach to surprise don't want to put the PCs in a position where they might fail or make them look less than heroic or even "moronic." I don't think it's my job as the DM to decide if the PCs are idiots or heroes or what. I let their abilities decide that in conjunction with the rules and the choices of the players. I also try not to get too hung up on verisimilitude. It is a game and games have rules. I don't expect the rules to perfectly model every conceivable situation. I actually prefer the rules to be simple so the same rule can be applied to a variety of situations even if it's not a perfect fit.

 

[Azrothan]

I am indeed maintaining the latter and here's why: "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." I read "a threat" as "any threat", so even though there is an obvious threat right in front of them I dont think that would prevent them from being surprised when the threat that they didn't account for reveals itself. In fact having the pirates right in front of them might actually distract them as a diversion, which I seem to remember was part of the set up for this encounter.

If you instead interpret "a threat" as a side in the battle, the rule is simple (it mentions sides trying to be stealthy and one side gaining surprise over the other).
It also makes perfect sense, as we have the hidden attacker rule to cover all those attacks from stealth/invisibility from individuals in the battle when the rest of that side doesn't try to be stealthy or are spotted.

If you go with your interpretation of "a threat" as any threat:
Two sides are stealthing, each side has at least 1 monster/pc that goes undetected by the other side (say both of them rolled 20 or had a member invisible). Everyone in this battle is now surprised.
The PCs being surprised by 30 goblins because of that one goblin hiding behind a tree in the back while the rest of his companions are completely visible. "Guys! GUYS! There's ANOTHER goblin in the back!" - the last words heard by the party as every other member was surprised by the fact there were actually 31 goblins they were facing.
Or how about that Halfling just hiding behind a medium+ sized creature all the time - perhaps just being carried on the back/in the backpack by a strong party member so they move faster... Imagine your frustration when the 30 goblins are surprised just because that Halfling pops up and goes "AHA!" - joining the ranks of the dead that fell from the same dirty trick earlier that session: a dragon, 2 Owlbears and a lone woman that was collecting water from a stream.

Both interpretations are easy to use, I just think the first one makes a lot more sense. Surprise is supposed to be a great tactical advantage when you actually get to set it up, not something that is meant to be abused for every encounter.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

In the given situation, I'd probably rule that the archers get to go first, as if they'd readied an action, and that the PCs are only allowed to respond to the threat that they knew about during that round. It's within the spirit of the surprise rules, and it works for creatures that join mid-battle as well.

 

[Hriston]

If you instead interpret "a threat" as a side in the battle, the rule is simple (it mentions sides trying to be stealthy and one side gaining surprise over the other).
It also makes perfect sense, as we have the hidden attacker rule to cover all those attacks from stealth/invisibility from individuals in the battle when the rest of that side doesn't try to be stealthy or are spotted.

If you go with your interpretation of "a threat" as any threat:
Two sides are stealthing, each side has at least 1 monster/pc that goes undetected by the other side (say both of them rolled 20 or had a member invisible). Everyone in this battle is now surprised.
The PCs being surprised by 30 goblins because of that one goblin hiding behind a tree in the back while the rest of his companions are completely visible. "Guys! GUYS! There's ANOTHER goblin in the back!" - the last words heard by the party as every other member was surprised by the fact there were actually 31 goblins they were facing.
Or how about that Halfling just hiding behind a medium+ sized creature all the time - perhaps just being carried on the back/in the backpack by a strong party member so they move faster... Imagine your frustration when the 30 goblins are surprised just because that Halfling pops up and goes "AHA!" - joining the ranks of the dead that fell from the same dirty trick earlier that session: a dragon, 2 Owlbears and a lone woman that was collecting water from a stream.

Both interpretations are easy to use, I just think the first one makes a lot more sense. Surprise is supposed to be a great tactical advantage when you actually get to set it up, not something that is meant to be abused for every encounter.

Like I said above, every game has rules. If a rule is seen to be prone to metagaming does it need to be changed? I don't think so. The metagamers will simply move on to another rule in their quest to gain advantage. This has the potential of breaking the game. So to discourage exploitation of the rules at our tables the first thing we can do as DMs is to refrain from engaging in this type of nonsense ourselves so that players don't learn to do this from the monsters they're fighting. Exploiting the rules based on technicalities does not an enjoyable TRPG make. But people will try to do this.

Now to address your arguments, as I quoted above, the rules for how a DM determines surprise state that the DM compares the stealth check of anyone attempting to hide with the perception scores of the other side. So it's only talking about whole sides when referring to those who may be surprised, and it specifically says that anyone, be he goblin, halfling, or kobold (god forbid!) may attempt to use stealth and thus surprise an entire party of 20th level characters. I have no problem with the examples you have given, and I certainly don't have a problem with both sides being surprised at the same time. I doubt very much that a dragon with expertise in perception would easily fall for such a gambit, but you can let your players find that out for themselves.

 

[Azrothan]

Like I said above, every game has rules. If a rule is seen to be prone to metagaming does it need to be changed? I don't think so.

Who's talking about changing rules?
It specifically says notice "a threat".
You can interpret "a threat" to be any part of one side.
You can also interpret "a threat" to mean one side (because the rule specifically mentions a side gaining surprise over the other and a side trying to be stealthy (not just a single part of it)).

The first interpretation leads to all examples that would make my group want to house rule the surprise rule, because it doesn't make sense to us.
The latter interpretation we have no issues with, and accept that in situations like the one described by the OP, the advantage of being a hidden attacker is a valid "surprise" bonus.

 

[pemerton]

The rule seems rather clear, now that I look at it. Surprise only applies to the first turn.

I guess that's why surprise can only happen on the first round of combat.

This thread is making it clear to me that an unnoticed threat can only surprise in the first round, meaning that if it remains hidden past the first round, or even past the initiative count of one creature or another, it does not surprise anyone already taking actions in the context of a melee.

Rereading Basic, p 69:

Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.​

So the constraint on surprise seems stricter than "1st turn only". It's "start of encounter" only.

There is no express statement that the unnoticed threat must activate itself as an element of the encounter, but that seems to be implied. Hence, to me, the most natural reading is that when an unnoticed threat activates itself at the start of the encounter , perhaps by initiating the encounter all on its own, perhaps by participating in conjunction with other noticed threats, then those who failed to notice it are surprised, and hence can't move, take actions or react until after their initiative count has been passed in that first round of the encounter.

I have no problem breaking the rules in the service of the narrative; I just want to make sure I understand the spirit of the surprise rules first before I go changing things up, and accidentally goof things up.

being "surprised" by the couple guys in the woods means that the PCs can't move or take actions on their first turn of combat, even against the obvious bad guys right in front of them? Is that right?

That is how it seems to me: if the archers in the woods activate themselves at the start of the encounter (eg by shooting arrows at the PCs) and the PCs hadn't noticed them prior to this, then the PCs are surprised and hence will get beaten up in the first round of combat.

The way I would think about this if the PCs are surprised by the snipers and are thus unable to act or move on the first round is that the situation has changed unexpectedly. They thought they were about to fight a certain group of adversaries and then another group pops up and begins firing, maybe even from a direction they're not facing.

Under the 5E system, everyone can act on the first round except those who are surprised. So the visible bandits would get to attack just like their sniper companions. If the PCs are surprised, they will be the only ones not acting.

Basically, this.

I would let the surprised party have there actions as normal, but be unable to act (or indeed react) against the foes surprising them.

Otherwise you could have a fight where each round a single goblin surprises the PC to totally lock them down (which I think is silly).

I don't think so, because the goblins after the first one wouldn't be activating themselves at the start of the encounter.

The PCs were confronted by a group of Dragon Cultists and began fighting with them. Meanwhile several wyverns hid themselves around the perimeter of the area. Chris Perkins, the DM, gave the PCs the benefit of a Perception check rather than just going with the passive score, but they all failed their rolls anyway. So what happened when the wyverns attacked was that the PCs were surprised, and not only did the wyverns get an "extra attack" on the surprise round (i.e. the beginning of a new encounter), but the cultists all got to attack too while the PCs just stood there because they were surprised.

To me this seems to break the rules. The encounter had already started when the wyverns attacked, so the PCs shouldn't have been able to be surprised by them.

This is why I argue that there should be no surprise in this encounter. The PCs know there is a threat, even if they don't know its full extent. They are already braced and ready for trouble. Surprise is when trouble hits somebody who isn't expecting it. The proper way to handle this scenario is for everyone to roll initiative, and then start combat on the snipers' initiative. (Effectively, everyone who rolled higher than the snipers used their action to talk.)

This is weird, though, because those who roll better on initiative are actually worse off! (My Rolemaster players used to call this being "initiative purged" - especially costly in RM because it can mean you haven't had a chance to declare a defence, and hence can be fairly easily cut down in melee.)

A somewhat similar thing comes up in Perkins' example, where the encounter starts before the wyverns can act (presumably because they rolled lower on initiative). Assuming that you are applying the surprise rules in these situations, I think the solution in these sorts of cases is probably to take a bit more advantage, as a GM, of the fact that initiative is an abstraction and all the action is taking place simultaneously: let the archers attack, and then have the visible bandits go, and then roll initiative after that first round. And in the wyvern case, have the GM declare the cultist attacks, then announce the wyverns' presence also ("You also see wyverns that you hadn't noticed swooping in!") - hence the PCs are surprised. Then resolve the melee attacks in initiative order.

Where the confusion lies for me is that the 5e rules never describe a "Surprise Round" as a thing. Rather, "surprised" is treated almost like a condition that one imposes one another, causing them to be unable to move or act during their first turn of combat. Of course, in a simple fight this effectively serves as a Surprise Round; however, once you have multiple enemies with different Stealth checks or different strategies, it becomes rather unclear how it's supposed to work.

I'd be curious to hear your reply about my example in post #53.

<snip>

do you actually believe that my example in post #53 makes sense narratively? That being surprised should allow any number of non-ambushers to wail on the surprised character that first roundecause they are so discombobulated from the sniper fire?

On this interpretation - which I think is the most natural reading of the rules as written - the surprise rules combine perception and morale into one gestalt whole. This is implicit in the phrase "unnoticed threat".

If a gnat is lurking in wait for me as I walk along the garden path, I probably won't notice it, but although unnoticed it is probably not an unnoticed threat. I think the sole goblin sniper with 30 obvious hobgoblins is in the same category: if the PCs are already gearing up to fight 30 hobgoblins one goblin is not a threat. Similarly, if your hidden bandits throw radishes at the PCs, the PCs might be surprised in the colloquial sense, but they have not been subjected to an unnoticed threat. (If the archers have carved the radishes in the shape of arrows - perhaps they are low on arrow heads but nevertheless want to give their visible comrades an advantage - that could be a different matter, perhaps determined by further perception or horticulture checks.)

To my mind, this question - what counts as a threat - is one of the places where the "rulings not rules" motif makes sense. (Whereas don't get me started on the syntactic and conceptual mess that is the hiding rules!) It reminds me a bit of Burning Wheel's Steel rules - a surprise attack can force a Steel check, with the possible consequence of being discombobulated and hence vulnerable to all comers. But the GM has authority to decide when a Steel check is triggered. A band of stout dwarves, facing a phalanx of hobgoblins, will not have to make a check just because one goblins jumps out and throws a spear at them!

Under the current rules, it would seem that they would be much better off betraying and attacking the party on the first round of combat, rather than waiting a few rounds in.

This is an interesting case. As written, the surprise rules seem to assume that it is only at the start of an encounter that the failure of attention and morale that constitutes surprise can take place. That looks like a simplification to facilitate game play and remove the need for some more complex mechanic like BW's Steel.

Within the scope of that simplification, the traitor is better of striking in the same round as the goblins attack, rather than waiting to see which way the wind is blowing and then deciding to treach.

 

[Celtavian]

[MENTION=45197]pming[/MENTION]
Haha, well that's refreshing to be mistaken for a newer 3e/4e player Thanks for the laugh!

Since I'm learning the new rules, I thought I might be missing something about the surprise rules...they're so...skinny. Even 1e had more detailed surprise rules than 5e!

I'll just go with what my gut instinct and [MENTION=1210]the Jester[/MENTION] recommended. Surprise round for snipers if called for. Resolved. Cheers.

Why would the snipers get a separate round of actions in the middle of combat? I wouldn't give them an extra round of attacks in the middle of a combat. Extra rounds of actions is very powerful in 5E.

You should give them advantage on attack rolls due to being unseen. They might be able to hide again to maintain the advantage given their cover and the PCs being distracted if they are rogues or something similar. Giving them extra rounds is way too much of an advantage.

If you start the combat with the melee, then give the snipers advantage to hit on their first round of attacks. That's a powerful enough benefit for being hidden.