D&D 5E Why is Hoard of the Dragon Queen such a bad adventure?

[Prism]

Not sure if this is the right place to post, but it seems a fairly healthy discussion of HoTDQ.
I'm currently playing it and quite enjoying it, our DM is doing a good job.
However its my turn to DM next and I was going to run the red hand of doom, converted to 5e, however, I'm worried that thematically it might be too similar to HoTDQ, is it different enough to run in your opinion?

Go for it. Probably the best module of the last 15 years and very different than HoTDQ. War vs investigation

 

[delericho]

Go for it. Probably the best module of the last 15 years and very different than HoTDQ. War vs investigation

Actually, I would recommend against it. While you're correct about both the quality of RHoD and the difference in the bulk of the adventure, the climactic encounter of RHoD has the PCs facing off against an Aspect of Tiamat, which may well feel same-y to groups who have just completed ToD.

 

[Parmandur]

Agreed. "Railroad" is a poor term here.



HotDQ is more like one of those cruises which take you from one destination to another (with no choice) but then leave you to explore those individual locations yourself (plenty of choice). Which isn't surprising - it is an adventure path after all!



(As opposed to a "theme park", where you could hit the chapters in any order, but didn't have any real choice once in a given chapter.)



I'm not yet in a position to evaluate HotDQ as a whole yet, but I have been pleasantly surprised by one thing in particular, and it is precisely what Hussar says - at many points during the adventure the designers explicitly pay attention to multiple approaches to the problem (fight, evade, sneak, negotiate). It's surprising how few published adventures fail to do that, and boil down to "just kill everything" - including many "good" adventures.

To be fair, railroading seems a natural enough DM response: "c'mon guys, I paid $25 for this, just go into the town, I have nothing prepped if you don't..."

 

[Parmandur]

They didn't write it.

Wolfgang Baur *is* Kobold Press, actually.

The record would mitigate against the claim that Steve Winter being unable to write, given his long career with TSR and WOTC.

So you personally don't care for the module, and it is not perfect; doesn't mean it has no value to those that enjoy it, or that the authors "can't write."

 

[Cybit]

There is a difference between an example of "the stat blocks being changed" and an example of "passive perception changed" and your claim of "the writers didn't have access to the design math, so the numbers are all off".

All of the numbers were not off.

Most of the "bugs" in that article were made by the design team and had little to do with the WotC design team. None of the railroading or other aspects of the module that some people dislike have anything to do with the writers not having access to any portion of the game system.

As someone whose group is listed in the playtester credits for both HotDQ and RoT and saw the first hand changes from the very beginning - there is a reason RoT is much better off than HotDQ, and that is because the game changed significantly in terms of base math and the abilities of PCs as well as monsters throughout the playtest. I give KP a bit of a pass on this one, because very basic mechanics were changed throughout the playtest of HotDQ.

Also, thank the lords they changed some of those episodes; episode 3 was much rougher when we went through it.

EDIT: Hilariously, one of the WotC changes to NPCs made the first episode TPK-ville until KP got around to revising the monsters used. I remember being in the middle of the episode and then getting the new monster changes and being like "Wait, WHAT?? Uh, ok?". Was actually pretty funny after the fact.

 

[delericho]

To be fair, railroading seems a natural enough DM response: "c'mon guys, I paid $25 for this, just go into the town, I have nothing prepped if you don't..."

Indeed. I don't have a problem with PCs being railroaded into the adventure. Especially since they've presumably created characters to play through this campaign, so one would think they would want to actually play it.

In any case, that would be a DM decision, not really something in the adventure - which, as Hussar says, explicitly gives the option of the PCs not getting involved. So it ain't a railroad as written.

Having said all that, I do think the initial setup is somewhat problematic as written, because so much of the first chapter does build on the assumption that the PCs will enter a town currently under dragon attack, a course of action which really isn't the most sensible. It would probably have been better to have the PCs start in the town, and be awoken in the night by the arrival of the attacking force.

But that really would have been a railroad...

 

[KarinsDad]

Indeed. I don't have a problem with PCs being railroaded into the adventure. Especially since they've presumably created characters to play through this campaign, so one would think they would want to actually play it.

In any case, that would be a DM decision, not really something in the adventure - which, as Hussar says, explicitly gives the option of the PCs not getting involved. So it ain't a railroad as written.

Having said all that, I do think the initial setup is somewhat problematic as written, because so much of the first chapter does build on the assumption that the PCs will enter a town currently under dragon attack, a course of action which really isn't the most sensible. It would probably have been better to have the PCs start in the town, and be awoken in the night by the arrival of the attacking force.

But that really would have been a railroad...

Hmmm, not so much. Our group started in Berdusk. They had to start somewhere close to Greenest in order to actually get to the adventure in the first place.

Starting the PCs in Greenest is no more railroady than starting them in Berdusk. They have to start somewhere.

That's probably the least railroady thing to do to your PCs since starting them somewhere is forced. Granted, some groups like to play where the players decide where they start, but that's not my brand of D&D.

 

[KarinsDad]

As someone whose group is listed in the playtester credits for both HotDQ and RoT and saw the first hand changes from the very beginning - there is a reason RoT is much better off than HotDQ, and that is because the game changed significantly in terms of base math and the abilities of PCs as well as monsters throughout the playtest. I give KP a bit of a pass on this one, because very basic mechanics were changed throughout the playtest of HotDQ.

Also, thank the lords they changed some of those episodes; episode 3 was much rougher when we went through it.

EDIT: Hilariously, one of the WotC changes to NPCs made the first episode TPK-ville until KP got around to revising the monsters used. I remember being in the middle of the episode and then getting the new monster changes and being like "Wait, WHAT?? Uh, ok?". Was actually pretty funny after the fact.

You might be misunderstanding my point.

If the Paladin no longer has his Whizbang power, how does that change the module in any way?

If Kobolds suddenly have pack tactics instead of having multiple spear throws, how does that change the module in any way?

Yes, if all monsters are slightly stronger after playtesting determines that they are all wimps and Greenest is filled with wimpy monsters to begin with, yes the designers have to go off and lower each encounter by a monster or yank some encounters in Greenest or add some more healing potions. Some adjustments would have to be made. We all understand that.


But, D&D has been around for 40 years. Experienced DMs know the difference between good module design and bad, even if there are some disagreements with DMs as to whether this module is bad or not. It's like a Marvel movie on Rotten Tomatoes. Everyone is expecting at least an 85%. HotDQ is getting a 50% (or whatever) on Rotten Tomatoes where a significant percentage like it and a significant percentage do not.

HotDQ is like the first Marvel movie and everyone was expecting this wonderful flagship of an adventure and it fell on its face quite a bit. Perception type abilities and stealth like abilities have been around for decades. If they changed a little bit from playtest, it shouldn't suddenly make the adventure go from good to bad.

What made the adventure bad was stuff that was built in. Like going to a town when a dragon is attacking it. Super heroic self sacrificing PCs might do that, but many PCs have different motivations and that's like asking them to jump off a cliff without a parachute.

Although there are people who disagree with me, the Half Dragon encounter is a terrible encounter and the very definition of railroady. Yes, three things can happen: a local can die, a PC can take a dirt nap (unless the DM doesn't really pull the trigger), or all of the PCs can fight and some or all of them can take a dirt nap (again,unless the DM doesn't really pull the trigger), but all of those choices suck and I don't play the game to be given sucky choices. I don't play the game for the game designers to teach me lessons. I play the game to have fun. It's a game.

For this to be the flagship adventure, it should definitely been much better designed and sorry, but the things that I do not like about the module have nothing to do with game mechanics. To me, that an excuse.

 

[Khasimir]

If I had to do the first episode over again, I'd go the route of having the party be in town for a day or so and then be attacked by a very young dragon along with the raiders. The young dragon being plausible given the hatchery in episode three.

I like the overall ideas behind the episodes and most of the details KP fleshed out, such as the half dragon challenge or the trip from BG to Waterdeep. I'm a little disappointed that I need to put as much effort as I have been into getting each session just right but there is plenty of good stuff to build upon.

 

[Sailor Moon]

Wolfgang Baur *is* Kobold Press, actually.

The record would mitigate against the claim that Steve Winter being unable to write, given his long career with TSR and WOTC.

So you personally don't care for the module, and it is not perfect; doesn't mean it has no value to those that enjoy it, or that the authors "can't write."

This AP is proof they can't write. I bet the only reason most people bought it was becauze it was the first AP of the new edition. If people had more knowledge at the time then I bet a lot of people would have given it a pass.

Just because you are employed at WoTc for a long time doesn't mean you are a good writer. WoTc hasn't written a good adventure in god knows how long.