D&D 5E duplicate proficiency

[Ashr]

I think you need to play with people you trust instead of assuming the worst of their decisions.

The broad version is definitely better. Skills are supposed to be equal. As a DM, I will essentially allow anyone to trade one skill for another if it better matches their character concept, regardless of duplicates. The only place I might limit that is if everyone starts wanting the Perception skill.

I think these are two key concepts in the spirit of the game. I've always been of a mindset that players should build a character concept, then try and match the character sheet to that. Rather than just building an optimal build. Mixing roleplay and roll-play together so that they complement each other and everyone has fun.

 

[CapnZapp]

It seems to me that if you deliberately choose a background whose skills is on your class skill list, you can completely circumvent that class restriction.

Simply choose as your class skills the exact two skills your background gives you. This instantly allows you to re-choose from all skills, not limited to your class skill list.



Example: A Barbarian's class skill list is "Choose two from Animal Handling, Athletics,
Intimidation, Nature, Perception, and Survival".

The Soldier background hands out Athletics, Intimidation.

So you want to select Athletics and Intimidation as your class skills. As soon as you then choose Soldier, you have duplicate proficiencies, and can re-choose from all skills.

This effectively means that you don't need to choose a background that complements your class in order to get a more diverse skill set that just your class skill list. In fact, you shouldn't. It's far better to pick a background that hands out skills your class is already giving you.

You would think a barbarian guild artisan (!), hermit (!!) or sage (!!!) would gain access to a wider selection of skills than the stereotypical barbarian folk hero, outlander or soldier...

...but you'd be wrong, since it is the latter trio who can be proficient in pretty much everything, instead of just two specific things.

I find this counter-intuitive, and I would like to hear if anyone has seen a rules suggestion or house rule that makes this awkwardness go away?

 

[Paraxis]

Broad reading.

Any time you gain a skill or tool proficiency you already have you gain another in it's place, keeping it in the same category, skill or tool.

Example,
Half Elf (any two skills)
Bard (any three skills) and (three musical instrument proficiencies)
Entertainer Background (acrobatics and performance, so just take them as half elf or bard and they are any two) and disguise kit plus one more musical instrument which becomes any tool proficiency you want like thieve's tools.

Honestly I just let my players use the customizing a background rules on page 125 of the PHB, pick any two skills, pick a combination of any two tool or language proficiencies.

 

[Fanaelialae]

It seems to me that if you deliberately choose a background whose skills is on your class skill list, you can completely circumvent that class restriction.

Simply choose as your class skills the exact two skills your background gives you. This instantly allows you to re-choose from all skills, not limited to your class skill list.



Example: A Barbarian's class skill list is "Choose two from Animal Handling, Athletics,
Intimidation, Nature, Perception, and Survival".

The Soldier background hands out Athletics, Intimidation.

So you want to select Athletics and Intimidation as your class skills. As soon as you then choose Soldier, you have duplicate proficiencies, and can re-choose from all skills.

This effectively means that you don't need to choose a background that complements your class in order to get a more diverse skill set that just your class skill list. In fact, you shouldn't. It's far better to pick a background that hands out skills your class is already giving you.

You would think a barbarian guild artisan (!), hermit (!!) or sage (!!!) would gain access to a wider selection of skills than the stereotypical barbarian folk hero, outlander or soldier...

...but you'd be wrong, since it is the latter trio who can be proficient in pretty much everything, instead of just two specific things.

I find this counter-intuitive, and I would like to hear if anyone has seen a rules suggestion or house rule that makes this awkwardness go away?

If it bothers you, just limit the skill to something that makes sense to one of the concepts (background or class). The DM and player agree on a replacement skill that makes sense and move on.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Whoa -- thread necro from five months ago!

It seems to me that if you deliberately choose a background whose skills is on your class skill list, you can completely circumvent that class restriction.

<snip>

I find this counter-intuitive, and I would like to hear if anyone has seen a rules suggestion or house rule that makes this awkwardness go away?

You are essentially just restating the problem I set out in the OP -- it's one reason why the narrow reading is helpful. I've got no problems everything balancing out when you start playing, but for changes to the character as he or she levels up, I think there's a really good case not to allow free choice of proficiencies to avoid duplicates. That's my rules suggestion.

 

[CapnZapp]

Whoa -- thread necro from five months ago!

Believe it or not, but yours was the only EN thread that I could find discussing this rather surprising point.

Or at least I think so, even though I really don't care much for the narrow vs broad discussion. Of course, I'm looking for discussion on the starting proficiencies from class and background. To me, the rules can only be interpreted one way, and that is for duplicate proficiencies to blow away the class restrictions, and I would like to know how this rule came about and what playtesters had against the alternative rule that if your background duplicates your choice of class skill, you simply get to remake that choice (i.e. make another choice from your class skill list) assuming all class lists contain at least five skills (so there's an actual choice involved still).

 

[CapnZapp]

If it bothers you, just limit the skill to something that makes sense to one of the concepts (background or class). The DM and player agree on a replacement skill that makes sense and move on.

But I already know I'm allowed to change any rule I want.

What I want to hear is if you (and others) like the current rule, and if so, what you would have disliked about the alternative where if you want diverse skills you would choose a non-stereotypical background for your class?

 

[Pickles JG]

Thanks so much for the feedback -- I didn't know Mearls had tweeted about this. It's actually pretty iterating how rarely the circumstances come up; my sense is there were many more instances i the play test. As it is now, I can see players feeling slightly cheated if their disguise-master gets given a duplicate proficiency at level 3 when they become an assassin. I'm not sure that's a completely justified feeling, but I can see it.

Does it make more sense for the newly-decided poisoner to learn Artisans' tools instead? No, but that's "balanced". I think it really can work perfectly fine either way.

This exactly the case I was thinking about. By the narrow reading you are encouraged to take a proficiency other than disguise kit for your first levels, undermining your character concept for those early levels. And you are assuming the poisoner is "newly decided" rather than finishing his apprenticeship or whatever.

 

[Pickles JG]

But I already know I'm allowed to change any rule I want.

What I want to hear is if you (and others) like the current rule, and if so, what you would have disliked about the alternative where if you want diverse skills you would choose a non-stereotypical background for your class?

You are allowed to make up backgrounds & skills relevant to them. I already think the idea is you get a couple of class skills & another couple of skills. The full freedom to pick overlapping choices allows you to avoid having to bother messing about with this afterall 8 backgrounds is very few (or 12 or so with variants).

 

[Remathilis]

It seems to me that if you deliberately choose a background whose skills is on your class skill list, you can completely circumvent that class restriction.

Simply choose as your class skills the exact two skills your background gives you. This instantly allows you to re-choose from all skills, not limited to your class skill list.

I find this counter-intuitive, and I would like to hear if anyone has seen a rules suggestion or house rule that makes this awkwardness go away?

The fix is simple: only allow them additional choices OFF THEIR CLASS SKILL LIST.

You make a Half-orc Barbarian (Soldier). He has 5 skills. He gets intimidate for free (half-orc). He then gets Athletics and Intimidate (again) for free (Soldier). Since he already has Intimidate, he gets an extra choice off the Barbarian List. He can now select three additional skills off of his class list; (Say, Perception, Survival, Animal Handling). He couldn't use his cross-over skill (Intimidate) to select Arcana since its not on his class skill list.

If he gets it later due to a class feature, he gets another choice off his class list. When he's out of class-list skills, he can then pick something off his class list. (In the barbarian's case, his SEVENTH Skill choice could be Arcana). If he multi-classes, he gets his choice off whatever class skill list granted him the bonus (a barbarian/rogue who gains deception for being an assassin could select a skill of the rogue list, not the barbarian list).

It hinges of course on doing skills race/backgorund/class order, but it keeps the flavor of the class.

Of course, tools are a different kettle of fish. I think I'll default to the "pick anything" model since only one set of tools (thieves tools) is useful beyond fluff. Ditto Languages.