D&D 5E Humans!?

[Celebrim]

I started playing D&D in prison as a way to escape my bleak existence, as did most of the rest of my group, we are all out of prison now, and live fairly exiting lives but I still like to escape into the realm of fantasy and a big part of that is shedding my humanity for the fluff of races that I identify with more than my own.

That's actually a really interesting perspective in and of itself, and I certainly can empathize but I still don't think we are quite communicating.

My point is that since the attraction of a fantasy race is its inhumanity, I prefer fantasy races to be distinctively inhuman in some way. However this is always a bit of compromise, because the less human the race, the harder it is for a player to understand the way the race thinks sufficiently to do it justice. Most of the time, what I tend to see is fantasy races which are not different from humans in anything but a superficial fashion. So for example, you have something as utterly alien as a Thri-krin, and in play you'd hardly know it was anything but a human unless you knew.

Jumping out to a different context, consider the typical Hollywood treatment of something alien. Consider the movie Ants. The movie Ants - unlike say 'A Bugs Life' - spends a considerable amount of effort on getting the alien feel of the ants world right - for example, giving them six limbs, and a caste structure. But the actual story it tells for these ants is a completely human story of boy of low caste meets girl of high caste and ends up becoming a hero. It's a fairy tale of the sort that humans tell each, and probably is perfectly understandable to even a Chimpanzee or any other Simian if you could convey it to them. But, the problem of course is that all worker caste ants are non-sexual females, who never would have an ambition or ability to mate with a juvenile queen, and that the male drones all die immediately after doing so anyway so ants themselves wouldn't understand the story at all. It's a human story told with alien characters, and while that's ok at some level, there is really no what you call "shedding of humanity" going on here. The Ants are basically only humans shaped liked ants.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It strikes me usually that most fantasy races are just funny shaped humans even if biologically they should be really different than humans and see the world in a very different way.

It seems to me that there are two ways you could play it:

1) Elves and dwarves are vastly different from humans, in every way that you could imagine, based on their varying biology and culture. No real human could even come close to accurately portraying what it would be like to live as such an alien creature.

2) Elves and dwarves are very much like humans, in spite of some (significant) variations in biology and culture, and mostly come off as exaggerated reflections of humanity along whatever tropes you want to play up.

Obviously, there are some pros and cons for each approach. The former gives a deeper and (arguably) more interesting, (arguable) more believable fantasy world. The latter can seem shallow, and (arguably) more fantastic; it is somehow more realistic to have weird elves and dwarves than to have human-seeming ones.

The big deciding factor between the two approaches (for me, and probably a lot of other people) is that choosing the former means elves and dwarves are non-player races. That... doesn't seem like the intent of how the world setting would have been designed. And of course, if elves and dwarves are off the table, then there's no point in even considering anything like the thri-kreen or warforged. You're pretty much left with humans, half-orc or half-elves (raised in human societies), and possibly halflings. It would seem that, silly as it sounds, human-like elves are as much a part of the premise of the world as gigantic flying dragons and numerous dungeons full of monsters and treasures.

 

[Herr der Qual]

That was very well put. I would love to play in one of your games. I would even accept playing a human, I would love to see how you portray non-human npc's

 

[Celebrim]

It seems to me that there are two ways you could play it:

Why only extremes?

Surely there is a point where elves and dwarves are somewhat different than humans but still close enough to humans that it is within the realm of human imagination how such beings would think and behave? After all, we aren't really taking about - even in my examples - something that is completely and utterly alien. Even in the two examples I gave, there is an amazing amount in common between the races - two genders, childhood, mortality, two hands, two feet, eat food, breath oxygen, eyes as primary sensory devices and ears as secondary senses, manipulative digits, at least the sensation of free will, symbolic language, appreciation of music, some form of government, etc.

The most alien allowed PC races in my game are the fey, which are probably too alien for a human to understand, but they make up for that in that there is no wrong way to play a fey. The fey are so incredibly diverse that regardless of how you were to play one, it would be right for that particular fey. This is doubly subverted by the PC in my current game, who has the disadvantage Misanthrope (Human) which means in effect, his behavior is so unsettlingly close to being human that other fey find him weird and unapproachable.

It's a humorous example, but the House Elves in JK Rawling's Potterverse IMO are an example of a fairly well realized fantasy race -despite some of the typical problems seen with portraying such characters (see for example Planescape: Torment for a long list of examples). There is something both relatable and inhuman about them, and the characterization of them eventually becomes really deep and at times stirring as we begin to empathize with the way they see the world.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Why only extremes?

It's a matter of perspective, but the only possibilities are that they are too alien to play, or they aren't.

If they're human enough to be playable, then that falls into rubber-forehead territory. Maybe. YMMV, but the poster boy for Rubber-Forehead Aliens is Worf, who is constantly going on about honor and duty, and having his weird biology play a role in the plot. In order for a race to be different enough to not just be some extreme sort of human, it would likely be alien enough that it wouldn't be easily playable by a human.

 

[Mercule]

It's a matter of perspective, but the only possibilities are that they are too alien to play, or they aren't.

If they're human enough to be playable, then that falls into rubber-forehead territory. Maybe. YMMV, but the poster boy for Rubber-Forehead Aliens is Worf, who is constantly going on about honor and duty, and having his weird biology play a role in the plot. In order for a race to be different enough to not just be some extreme sort of human, it would likely be alien enough that it wouldn't be easily playable by a human.

There is a middle ground. Take elves, for example. Assume that they aren't wholly alien, rather the closest to human the fey can get (or vice versa). They're human enough to be comprehensible, but alien enough to warrant a separate race.

They have insanely long lives (I still use the 1E 1500-2000 years for my home brew), don't really sleep, aren't particularly sturdy, but innately imbued with some magical talent. The also have a spirit, rather than a soul, and know that death holds reincarnation, rather than an afterlife -- this is the nature of the Reverie; they have visions of past lives and relive elements of them.

Between the long life and the Reverie, elves have an essentially timeless outlook. Sure, they lose muscle memory and some of the details of crafts and skills, but this can be seen as an opportunity to learn something new or even re-experience the joy of learning something extraordinary for the first time. It also means that elves have little fear of dying. That's not to say they're suicidal, but they know what awaits them and have been through it before -- their outlook on death would be much like a Christian martyr, both with the added weight of experience and tempered by a rebirth into the same world rather than a better one.

The long life of elves, relative to others, gives them a perspective on life as well as death. Humans have the comparable lifespan of a Guinea pig. Even a dwarf would be like a dog's lifespan. Clearly, these races are of comparable intelligence, so they wouldn't be viewed as pets. But interacting with humans would always be like meeting someone shortly after they'd been diagnosed with terminal, incurable cancer. Even in the best of cases, they'll make a number of decisions based on their impending demise. Can you keep up with the frantic pace of rushing from one deed to another, never savoring the victory, but always looking for the next thing to complete before it's too late? How deep of a bond would you be willing to forge with them, knowing that they'll wither and die by the time you're really getting invested? If you've ever dealt with aging relatives, you know what it's like to not know whether they'll still be there for your next visit or if this is it. That's every parting between an elf and a human.

That same perspective makes elves abhor unnecessary killing. Why destroy something that is so fleeting? Even the most annoying orc will die in a short span. Sometimes you have to put down a mad dog -- and orcs have more than their fair share of those -- but it isn't something to be reveled in.

Now, a significant amount of that is cultural -- or is it? If you took a colony of human babies and somehow raised them without cultural interference, I'd wager that you'd see some very similar patterns within a couple generations, just from biologic sex drive. A good amount of the alien nature of elves comes from their lifespan, which can't be escaped. Sure, you can have an elf who does view humans, etc. as pets, just because of their short life, but it's still a factor. If you want to twist the elven stereotype (which I very much approve of), you should still be asking how the uniquely elven traits shape you in ways that human isn't.

I won't speak for Celebrim, but I, personally, prefer a human-centric game because I find most people don't really think about how those alien traits would shape their characters' behavior. An elf is often different from a human only because they have stat modifiers and darkvision and maybe they're just a little sexier. If that's all the non-humans are, then I don't really want to bother. Just make a list of "racial" abilities that can be taken instead of the feat for the variant human. The old literary adage is that "if it doesn't add something of value, don't include it". I'd apply this to D&D races, too. BTW, this is why I don't generally use halflings; they're just short humans and don't really have anything "alien" to set them apart.

FWIW, most of my "this is an elf", above, comes from "The Elven Point of View" in Dragon #60, which was reprinted in "Best of Dragon Vol. III". Once again, I'll put in my plug that Dragon and Dungeon should be revived because they create durable value, even 30 years later.

 

[Dausuul]

If you want nonhuman races to feel nonhuman, that needs to be reflected in mechanics that see regular use. Otherwise it's too easy to ignore the differences. Yeah, elves live for a thousand years, but when does that ever come up in play? Likewise, the differences between trance and sleep are mostly academic. Darkvision has some potential impact, but most of the time there are non-darkvision-having PCs in the party, which means the party carries a light source and darkvision is largely irrelevant. "Humans in funny suits" happens because mechanically, humans in funny suits is what the designers gave us.

Now, imagine a vampire race, with all the usual abilities and limits. Can't go out in sunlight--you burn alive (well, dead). Can turn into a bat or a wolf or a cloud of smoke at will. Has to have a resting place with native soil. Can be held at bay by garlic, holy symbols, running water. Can survive and recover after being physically destroyed. Et cetera, et cetera. Setting aside balance concerns, do you think a vampire PC with these abilities would come across as a human in a funny suit? Not likely. Your vampire traits would be constantly reminding you of their presence, shaping the way you play your character.

I'd like to see some more vampirey races and fewer elfy races. Of course, the big challenge here is that the designers do have to consider balance, and vampirey races are inherently difficult to balance. Balancing elfy races is a lot easier.

 

[Herr der Qual]

The way it comes across to me is there is essentially three camps, playing non-humans for mechanics is fine, the more flavor added to that character the better, playing non-humans for mechanics is unnacceptable, being true to the race is most important, and playing non-humans is a no-go I don't want that crap in my game.

I don't mind when people play for the mechanics, I feel like that's the starting point but the players who do that are just as likely if not more likely to play human. The game mechanics are there to be used by players.

By not allowing the play of certain races it simply becomes a house rule issue, every table has house rules and players can either accept that's a rule and move on or choose not to play at that table.

If you really want to hammer home the non-humans as different and feel that they need to be believable characters that's fine, but I would caution that by doing so you run the risk of enforcing your beliefs onto your players and you can quickly spoil any fun to be had for the non-human by restricting the interpretation of what that alien mind would be and can/could bring to the table.

I thoroughly enjoy when my players try a new race for the first time and watch them gradually flesh it out into a fully realized character throughout the life of the campaign. I love to see the different takes people use when they try to bring that alien mind to life, yes it does get irksome when players like "I'm a dwarf" and basically consider him a funny looking human, take no consideration in doing him any justice but that will happen. Earlier in this thread I was asked why my Dwarf would protect (fiercely) people he doesn't yet trust, and it's simple, of the people in his group he is the longest lived, he doesn't want to see them dead before they've reached adulthood (they are far from adults in his dwarven eyes), he watches them rush to action and impulsively decide on paths to take while he is still pondering the merits of each course of action. I know what path I want to take as a player but my Dwarf is yet undecided. He fruitlessly tries to interest them in working metal at a forge with him, he is furiously torn between coming to admire humans and treating them like spoiled children. He is a ranger first and foremost and to him that means that he needs to be the vanguard for all of the goodly races, but in his short but troublesome dealings with them he questions if he is doing right by them and has become more barbaric, being orphaned he has never known a stable life, sees the strength he has gained through hardship and wonders if he protects them too much. Recently some NPC's died while we were escorting them and he sees now that not all are as strong as a dwarf, they are not as resilient to strife and his nurturing side is starting to dominate slowly. He hasn't seen treachery from the half-elf but he will be on vigil for the first signs of it yet, because he knows the only race more patient then his own are the elves and he will not trust him with the most important tasks for years to come.

That is three levels of experience with the dwarf, he will continue to flesh out as a character, but I never stop thinking about the way he interprets the world around him. I just encourage everyone to not forget that this is a game meant to be enjoyed and if the mechanics are what you enjoy then play, play away!

 

[Hussar]

If you want nonhuman races to feel nonhuman, that needs to be reflected in mechanics that see regular use. Otherwise it's too easy to ignore the differences. Yeah, elves live for a thousand years, but when does that ever come up in play? Likewise, the differences between trance and sleep are mostly academic. Darkvision has some potential impact, but most of the time there are non-darkvision-having PCs in the party, which means the party carries a light source and darkvision is largely irrelevant. "Humans in funny suits" happens because mechanically, humans in funny suits is what the designers gave us.

Now, imagine a vampire race, with all the usual abilities and limits. Can't go out in sunlight--you burn alive (well, dead). Can turn into a bat or a wolf or a cloud of smoke at will. Has to have a resting place with native soil. Can be held at bay by garlic, holy symbols, running water. Can survive and recover after being physically destroyed. Et cetera, et cetera. Setting aside balance concerns, do you think a vampire PC with these abilities would come across as a human in a funny suit? Not likely. Your vampire traits would be constantly reminding you of their presence, shaping the way you play your character.

I'd like to see some more vampirey races and fewer elfy races. Of course, the big challenge here is that the designers do have to consider balance, and vampirey races are inherently difficult to balance. Balancing elfy races is a lot easier.

I think that this, right here is spot on.

Lots of the iconic elements of various races aren't really applicable to the table. Elven long life, dwarven lawfulness, halfling "stay at homeness" all don't really come up that often. Either the DM has to include things in the game that hit on these points, or the players really have to make an effort to bring these things to the table. IMO, it's much more on the players. Mechanics can help here. The 4e vampire PC race had a very cool mechanic - it couldn't heal, it had to steal healing surges from others. Nothing says vampire like one player turning to the other player and saying, "Umm, see, err, would you mind if I bit you just a little bit?"

I don't really mind the stereotypes that much to be honest. At least it's something. A far cry better to have a scottish, hard drinking dwarf than a short, hirstute human. At least the former tells the rest of the players at the table that this isn't just another human.

 

[aramis erak]

It seems to me that there are two ways you could play it:

1) Elves and dwarves are vastly different from humans, in every way that you could imagine, based on their varying biology and culture. No real human could even come close to accurately portraying what it would be like to live as such an alien creature.

2) Elves and dwarves are very much like humans, in spite of some (significant) variations in biology and culture, and mostly come off as exaggerated reflections of humanity along whatever tropes you want to play up.

Obviously, there are some pros and cons for each approach. The former gives a deeper and (arguably) more interesting, (arguable) more believable fantasy world. The latter can seem shallow, and (arguably) more fantastic; it is somehow more realistic to have weird elves and dwarves than to have human-seeming ones.

The big deciding factor between the two approaches (for me, and probably a lot of other people) is that choosing the former means elves and dwarves are non-player races. That... doesn't seem like the intent of how the world setting would have been designed. And of course, if elves and dwarves are off the table, then there's no point in even considering anything like the thri-kreen or warforged. You're pretty much left with humans, half-orc or half-elves (raised in human societies), and possibly halflings. It would seem that, silly as it sounds, human-like elves are as much a part of the premise of the world as gigantic flying dragons and numerous dungeons full of monsters and treasures.

The Elves and Dwarves of D&D are, in practical terms, Homo dryadales and Homo nani, not Dryadales sapiens and Nani sapiens. They are us with minor twists. Orcs might be in the Genus Paranthropos or even Australopithecus... but they're still essentially subfamily hominidae. They should be no more alien than Pan troglodyties or Pan pan. Even the untrained eye can make out the motivations of a chimp or banobo (hint: 3F's Feasting, fornicating, and fighting, with a dose of fellowship on the side.)

The elves lifespan is long... up to a millenium... but a young elf in his 30's is likely to be as careless and carefree as a human his own age. It's the ancient ones who should be alien in perspective. And I don't recall 7 year pregnancies (its likely not much longer than humans), but recall a 7 year average between children... tho' I don't have the 2E splat books handy to check. Many of the source mythologies, however, give the gestation time of elves as 10 or 11 months...

The dwarf race of modern fantasy is almost whole-cloth tolkien. The other sources tend to have dwarves as either Homo sapiens nani (in other words, a stable subpopulation similar to the tribes of short humans in PNG and Africa), or as they typically are in modern life, random mutations.

So, really, they aren't the ones that should be all weird. That should be the Dragonborn, the Aasimar, the Deva, etc.