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D&D 5E Legends & Lore - A Retrospective

aramis erak

Legend
3E was rather divisive... leading to OSRIC, etc. Gripe started on peoples websites and on BBSs almost immediately. What we don't see is lots of legacy posts against it preserved on the internet. Hell, 2E was griped about on local BBSs at the time... but you didn't see the groundswell as much, because they were all of the dial-in kind.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Pemerton presented that "common sense" in 4e = fictional positioning = the default in 4e.
I made no claim about the default play. I only referenced the rulebooks. The DMG says "common sense" is the default, and then presents grid-based lines-drawn-from-corners rules as an option. Given that "common sense" is contrasted with grid-based rules, what can it mean? It means fictional positioning.

The bigger issue is that the PHB (and RC after it) have opening passages that refer to fictional positioning - they are nearly word-for-word identical to the corresponding 5e text - but then have an entry "Determining cover" which is all about lines-drawn-from-corners. That is contradictory. (An additional contradiction is that the lines-drawn-from-corners rules in the PHB and in the DMG are identical for ranged combat, but not identical for melee. I think that is a smaller issue, more of a technical glitch, and I don't remember anyone but me ever mentioning it online.)
 

BryonD

Hero
3E was rather divisive... leading to OSRIC, etc. Gripe started on peoples websites and on BBSs almost immediately. What we don't see is lots of legacy posts against it preserved on the internet. Hell, 2E was griped about on local BBSs at the time... but you didn't see the groundswell as much, because they were all of the dial-in kind.

If you are saying that you could make a pie chart of divisions for any edition change, then you would be correct.

If you then leave the implication hanging that the sizes of those divisions have remained comparable and roughly proportional for any edition change, then you would be misleading.
 

Iosue

Legend
I'm not disagreeing, per se, but how do you reckon this? Looking at 3E at the same time after release, it seemed way less divisive, with virtually everyone I knew (online and off) seeing it as significant improvement over 2E, and tons of people coming back to D&D for it. People sticking with D&D/1E/2E were far and few between and virtually no-one was even considering D&D-esque games.

Whereas say, a year or three after 3.5E, we were seeing significant dissatisfaction, people heading off to other d20 and non-d20 RPGs, and the very beginnings of mainstream retro-clones, and so on. But where will 5E be in four-five-six years? Hard to say.

Even comparing 5E to the latter, I'm not sure it's brought a lot of people back into the fold - I still see a lot of people playing retro-clones and alternative D&Ds like Pathfinder or Dungeon World. 4E was certainly more divisive than 5E, though.

So I'm not really seeing "least divisive". I can see "managed to heal some cracks and certainly avoided exacerbating most of them". But I feel like 3E brought people together way more, even if it later blew them apart.
3e had a lot of positivity -- not just the game, but also the OGL being extremely popular. But I'm not sure how one can say it wasn't also extremely divisive. The changes it ushered in weren't largely cosmetic, like 2e was -- 3e is a significantly different game from 2e, with an entirely new design focus. It brought in a lot of new people, and brought back some old people, and also created a huge schism between those who played TSR-D&D and WotC-D&D. It changed what an "edition" meant for D&D, perhaps for all RPGs.

I don't think you're looking at this the way people who play games, do, though. I don't know of any D&D players, from any edition, who actively look for miniature-based play from D&D, who actively look for a grid/hexes, as a goal in themselves.
I never said they did. I'm saying that if you have a preference, 5e accommodates it.

So I think when you flippantly dismiss 4E-style tactical play, and claim 5E has "something for everyone" because it has rules for mini + grid, I think you're not understanding what people actually want.
Back the truck up a minute. I didn't dismiss 4e-style tactical play. It's a separate issue. The question of whether one prefers to use minis or not, or how one prefers to use minis (e.g., placeholders, squares, hexes) is a separate issue from a tactical combat system. To mini or not to mini, as well as to grid or not to grid, are questions that have been with D&D since 1st Edition. There are plenty of people who loooove playing with minis and 1e tactical play who hate playing 4e's combats, and vice versa. There are people who love 3e miniature and grid play who hate 4e (and 1e) combats, and vice versa. So the minutiae of the tactical system is a separate issue.

This article isn't talking about tactical combat options or anything like that. It's talking about the game's assumptions regarding the use of miniatures/tokens. Consequently, my appraisal of 5e is based purely on that.

And incidentally, the reason why 5e was so successful in this area is because the preferences are generally broad -- unlike tactical combat systems!
 
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BryonD

Hero
I'm not disagreeing, per se, but how do you reckon this? Looking at 3E at the same time after release, it seemed way less divisive, with virtually everyone I knew (online and off) seeing it as significant improvement over 2E, and tons of people coming back to D&D for it. People sticking with D&D/1E/2E were far and few between and virtually no-one was even considering D&D-esque games.

Whereas say, a year or three after 3.5E, we were seeing significant dissatisfaction, people heading off to other d20 and non-d20 RPGs, and the very beginnings of mainstream retro-clones, and so on. But where will 5E be in four-five-six years? Hard to say.

Even comparing 5E to the latter, I'm not sure it's brought a lot of people back into the fold - I still see a lot of people playing retro-clones and alternative D&Ds like Pathfinder or Dungeon World. 4E was certainly more divisive than 5E, though.

So I'm not really seeing "least divisive". I can see "managed to heal some cracks and certainly avoided exacerbating most of them". But I feel like 3E brought people together way more, even if it later blew them apart.
Pretty much.

I'd offer that D20 based variants were far and away the biggest pieces of the blown apart community.
And, as time went by, those D20 variants wandered farther and farther from the core, and you can see people who cut their teeth on taking D20 further from 3E breaking off into the non-D20 games.

Certainly there has long been a slowly but steadily growing market of new/innovative/independent games. I think that the first boom of 3E temporarily put a major set-back on the trend, the D20 bust gave it a burst of energy, and the long term average is probably just marching on.

So far though, as independent games form more and more slices in the overall pie, their combined share is still pretty small and slow (though very much steady) in the growing.
 

aramis erak

Legend
3e had a lot of positivity -- not just the game, but also the OGL being extremely popular. But I'm not sure how one can say it wasn't also extremely divisive. The changes it ushered in weren't largely cosmetic, like 2e was -- 3e is a significantly different game from 2e, with an entirely new design focus. It brought in a lot of new people, and brought back some old people, and also created a huge schism between those who played TSR-D&D and WotC-D&D. It changed what an "edition" meant for D&D, perhaps for all RPGs.

It is worth noting that Traveller's editions were likewise major shifts...
Except between CT 1E (≤1980 printings) and CT 2E (≥1981 printings), each edition was almost entirely new mechanics; T5 is no exception.

Mechwarrior is the other one with major shifts between editions.

In all three (D&D, MW, and Traveller) the shifts were tolerated because of the popularity of the brand, and the setting continuities.

And note that Player's Option 2E was a very different game from any other D&D ever... it's the bridge to 3E. Combat and Tactics is VERY much 3E's combat system prototype...
 

Iosue

Legend
Legends & Lore #3 - Setting the Pace
March 1, 2011
No original EN World thread found

Talk about a prescient article. In this one, Mearls discusses the release schedule of editions throughout history. The impetus for this article was the cancellation of three products from the 2011 schedule. (These were Hero Builder's Handbook, Class Compendium: Heroes of Sword & Spell, and Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium. Material from HBH would eventually show up in Dragon magazine; the Essentials format for the Core 4e classes that were supposed to be in the Class Compendium were eventually released in PDFs, and MME was eventually released in print format in September of 2011.)

OD&D had five supplements in 18 months (Greyhawk; Blackmoor; Eldritch Wizardryl Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes; and Swords & Spells). AD&D emphasized adventures, with the Core Three and only 10 hardcover expansions in 12 years, as well as two boxed campaign sets and some FR sourcebooks. Much of the new material, particularly player-side new material, showed up in Dragon magazine. AD&D 2nd Ed. cut back on hardcovers, but released a metric craptonne of softcover expansions (Mearls says 5 or 6 a month), as well as many boxed sets. Both 3rd and 4th went back to hardcovers - often player-oriented, with only scattered stand-alone adventures published -- people relied on Dungeon magazine for more adventures.

Looking ahead, Mearls seems to question the wisdom of a heavy release schedule.
Mearls said:
Looking at it from a production viewpoint, more content naturally yields more errors and inconsistencies. Even if Wizards added more designers and editors, the sheer volume of information makes monitoring and coordinating everything a challenge—as you produce more content, the chance for an error increases at an exponential rate, rather than a linear rate. However, you can also argue that while more mistakes might creep in, the total volume of content counteracts that. You might have mistakes, but you have enough stuff in total to make up for them.

He then brings up the question of complexity and the difficulties it brings.
Mearls said:
Complexity stands as perhaps the biggest argument against a rapid release schedule. One of the things R&D must consider is what it’s like for a new player to enter a store and pick up a D&D product. If that new player is greeted by a wall of books and boxes, buying into the game becomes that much more daunting. It’s easy for an experienced player to navigate that maze, to understand that the Player’s Handbook is the key to getting started while Complete Warrior and Martial Power are optional expansions. However, that isn’t clear from their titles or even how they are arranged in the store. Compare that to many board game lines, where the core set is in a bigger, more expensive box and expansions in smaller ones. That might seem like a minor detail to an experienced gamer, but such visual cues are really helpful to beginners. It’s easy to understand that the big box is a starting point and the small box is an expansion.
It really is funny to read these after all this time. Given that I can't find a thread for this article here at EN World, I surmise that for many people it was just seen as face-saving and butt-covering for the cancellation of three anticipated releases. But really, in hindsight, the above paragraph is meaningless in a 4e context. The horses were already out of the barn. 4e shelves were a mess of complexity, with the core books and twentysome hardcover expansions AND the new Essentials line, with its own version of a DMG, own version of a MM, and two PHBs (the former two coming in boxes). Mearls may have been trying to justify the Essentials roll-out, but it sure looks now like he was looking even further ahead.

Finally, Mearls slips in a little bit of design philosophy --
Mearls said:
Finally, even for experienced players too much content can prove troublesome. A small list of spells is on one hand limiting, but on the other it provides a familiar starting point for talking about the game. One of the things I miss from 4th Edition is the ubiquity of certain effects. Fireball and invisibility were not only wizard spells, but they also served as monster special abilities. You could identify and understand them in play much easier than, say, comparing powers from two different classes. A smaller set of mechanics, especially if those mechanics are used for a variety of purposes, can create more cohesion between players and DMs.
Yeah, I think he was definitely thinking about 5e at this point.

How did things end up in 5e?
Well, as is clear now, they are drastically cutting back on the release schedule. Mearls put it somewhere (can't find the source now -- an EN World post, maybe?), "If we've put out enough material to last you six months, why would I try to sell you anything else in that time?" The current plan appears to be two big adventure path/campaign type releases a year, supplemented by a few standalone products and web content. Mearls did indeed put the 5e starting point in a big box, and created the online Basic Rules as a smooth, relatively less complex on-ramp to the rest of the game. One strategy that wasn't really talked about in the article (for obvious reasons) was the release of old material as PDFs on D&D Classics. This allows them to make use of past products without having to create print product with high overhead for what may be a limited audience. Want to play in Eberron? Buy a cheap PDF of the 3e or 3.5 campaign book and use this online supplement for PCs. Want to play in the Realms? Choose your favorite version and convert it fairly easy on the fly.

Another aspect of 5e as far as material goes is there's a lot of space to go to without worrying about unbalancing the game too much. Backgrounds being one, and the chunkier feats being another. The big question is how crazy they will go with subclasses, in whatever form, be that new player expansions, a resurrected Dragon magazine, or Unearthed Arcana-type articles.
 

Iosue

Legend
By the way, just the one article this time, folks. The next two are something of a piece, and it's a juicy subject (complexity and class design).
 
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TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
Yes, these are pretty forward looking. The need for a "bigger tent" approach to the game, making mini's optional, ramping down releases and going back to fewer better known spell/powers....all hidden in plain sight.

It is funny so soon after Essentials. Those must have really....under-performed...
 

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