Pathfinder 1E A more mature setting?

[delericho]

I think orc is a bad example. There are no modules nor APs that have orc encounters in them (that I can think of).

Bad timing. The first adventure of the Giantslayer path has just been released, and features orcs quite significantly.

Beyond the bestiary listing for orc, among the monstrous humanoids in PF, orc is mostly absent. I don't think there are any mentions of orc societies in any of the setting guides either.

They're in "Classic Monsters Revisited", which was released some years ago.

That said, the characterisation of them as "rape fiends" is an exaggeration, to say the least.

 

[concerro]

I understand your problems with Golarion, but maturity or lack of it is not what I would use.
I think "simplistic" is better, and I think that with the default rules of the game having concrete ideals of the alignments, it makes sense to have an "official" setting hat falls in line with that. Yeah that means 99% of ogres are savage brutes and bullies. Most orcs are evil, and at best not normally good. It also means someone humanoid types are seen as "monsters", and not given too much leeway with legal rights. As for including all of the races and sexual preferences it makes it realistic to me. To have a world with no diversity, and nobody is homosexual(hopefully that is the PC term for enworld) would make me think someone overlooked a lot of things, or the setting was not realistic if it was intentional to not have them. It also makes sure that everyone has something that appeals to them.

I thought you were going to compare Golarion to a more gritty setting where the good guys do not always win, and death is not so easy to come back from before I read your opening post.

 

[Reynard]

On the LotR orc examples: where you see honor and friendship, I see struggling for position and conniving against a more hated foe or bully captain. Tolkien did a good job of making orcs intelligent, individual creatures, but they were still inherently evil. That inherent evil is an important distinction to make and is in fact what removes an endorsement of genocide. If orcs are just "savages" whose social mores accept rapine and slaughter and just need civilized folk to show them the error of their ways, you have a colonialist, racist caricature on your hands. But if they are inherently evil, if the metaphysical force of Evil in the multiverse that fights against decency and love and honor is an integral part of them, then the war against orcs by those aligned with Good is a just war (in the context of the fiction).

 

[pickin_grinnin]

PF is great and all, but I don't find the official setting particularly original or thought-provoking.

To be honest, high fantasy in general - in books, movies, or rpgs - is rarely very original or thought-provoking. You generally have to stray into other subgenres of fantasy to get that. Most high fantasy is derived from Tolkien, when you get down to it.

 

[VelvetViolet]

I understand your problems with Golarion, but maturity or lack of it is not what I would use.
I think "simplistic" is better, and I think that with the default rules of the game having concrete ideals of the alignments, it makes sense to have an "official" setting hat falls in line with that. Yeah that means 99% of ogres are savage brutes and bullies. Most orcs are evil, and at best not normally good. It also means someone humanoid types are seen as "monsters", and not given too much leeway with legal rights. As for including all of the races and sexual preferences it makes it realistic to me. To have a world with no diversity, and nobody is homosexual(hopefully that is the PC term for enworld) would make me think someone overlooked a lot of things, or the setting was not realistic if it was intentional to not have them. It also makes sure that everyone has something that appeals to them.

I thought you were going to compare Golarion to a more gritty setting where the good guys do not always win, and death is not so easy to come back from before I read your opening post.

I find a world where people can be literally born gay, evil or both to be offensive because it implicitly equates alignment with sexual orientation. I have no problem with diversity itself. When the writers start projecting their own moral relativism into a game with objective morality without thinking through the logical implications, then I have a problem.

A world where evil is a natural part of physics, the world is literally always doomed as a result and it is all the heroes can do to save it from destruction every week is more disturbing to me than one that is merely gritty.

On the LotR orc examples: where you see honor and friendship, I see struggling for position and conniving against a more hated foe or bully captain. Tolkien did a good job of making orcs intelligent, individual creatures, but they were still inherently evil. That inherent evil is an important distinction to make and is in fact what removes an endorsement of genocide. If orcs are just "savages" whose social mores accept rapine and slaughter and just need civilized folk to show them the error of their ways, you have a colonialist, racist caricature on your hands. But if they are inherently evil, if the metaphysical force of Evil in the multiverse that fights against decency and love and honor is an integral part of them, then the war against orcs by those aligned with Good is a just war (in the context of the fiction).

Tolkien actually wrote that he couldn't accept the idea anyone (including orcs) could be inherently evil and beyond redemption because it went against his religious beliefs. That is why his orcs even have any redeeming values, like being able to sit down and shut up. Even Morgoth and Sauron were fallen angels capable of redemption rather than being born of evil and beyond saving. That is why their fates are so tragic. This subtlety is unfortunately missed by many people.

Orcs in PF are not inherently evil because they do not have the evil subtype. If they were, they would be fiends. They are evil for purely arbitrary reasons: the PCs need a target to murder and loot without feeling guilty.

To be honest, high fantasy in general - in books, movies, or rpgs - is rarely very original or thought-provoking. You generally have to stray into other subgenres of fantasy to get that. Most high fantasy is derived from Tolkien, when you get down to it.

It also tends to get Tolkien wrong, but that's how the cookie crumbles. Golarion is unique by virtue of being an unintentional pastiche of the fantasy genre.

 

[Reynard]

Golarion is unique by virtue of being an unintentional pastiche of the fantasy genre.

It is neither unique in that regard, nor is that unintentional. It seems odd for you suggest otherwise. Golarion is heavily influence by the World of Greyhawk, a pastiche of fantasy subgenres, which itself was influenced by Howard's Hyborean Age, also a pastiche of mythical and historical tropes.

As to your general dislike of having "evil types" I suppose that is just a matter of taste. It doesn't matter if its is Orcs or Sothrons or bandits -- D&D is solidly in the action adventure genre and that generally requires cannon fodder. So pick fodder you don't mind murdering by the score. Whatever you deem as inoffensive and acceptable for indiscriminate destruction, someone somewhere is going to find offense with it.

 

[VelvetViolet]

It is neither unique in that regard, nor is that unintentional. It seems odd for you suggest otherwise. Golarion is heavily influence by the World of Greyhawk, a pastiche of fantasy subgenres, which itself was influenced by Howard's Hyborean Age, also a pastiche of mythical and historical tropes.

As to your general dislike of having "evil types" I suppose that is just a matter of taste. It doesn't matter if its is Orcs or Sothrons or bandits -- D&D is solidly in the action adventure genre and that generally requires cannon fodder. So pick fodder you don't mind murdering by the score. Whatever you deem as inoffensive and acceptable for indiscriminate destruction, someone somewhere is going to find offense with it.

A pastiche is a parody of an entire genre.
Golarion is basically Discworld except that it takes itself seriously with no hint of self-awareness or satire.

Is there any compelling reason the PCs need to kill everything they come across? Couldn't they earn experience from non-lethal solutions where applicable?

 

[Reynard]

A pastiche is a parody of an entire genre.
Golarion is basically Discworld except that it takes itself seriously with no hint of self-awareness or satire.

A pastiche is not a parody.

Is there any compelling reason the PCs need to kill everything they come across? Couldn't they earn experience from non-lethal solutions where applicable?

Of course not. It was your assertion that PCs were automatically killing and looting everything they encountered, not mine.

 

[VelvetViolet]

A pastiche is not a parody.



Of course not. It was your assertion that PCs were automatically killing and looting everything they encountered, not mine.

Noted. My point about the inherent ridiculousness of the Golarion setting still stands.

I find it really difficult to empathize with the alignment system when its definitions of good and evil are so often arbitrary and contradictory.

 

[Reynard]

Noted. My point about the inherent ridiculousness of the Golarion setting still stands.

I find it really difficult to empathize with the alignment system when its definitions of good and evil are so often arbitrary and contradictory.

My solution to that problem is to decide the alignment system is a real thing in the context of the milieu, a set of actual forces as real as gravity, magic and the elements. It doesn't have to make sense because it isn't a description of personality traits. Rather, it represents a metaphysical tie between a mind and a fundamental force of creation. The "Free peoples" type races are unique in that they have the capacity to choose which force to Align with (and may even do so subconsciously). Which races constitute so-named Free Peoples varies based on the campaign. I have done it where it is anything intelligent, where it is only humans, and everything in between.