Designing my own system; how to work the imposition of "fear" effects?

[System Ufera]

Hello! As some of you may be aware, I am working on my own PnP RPG system, and I sometimes go on to these boards for advice. The last time I posted a topic, it was on the mechanical value of bards and the things they should be able to do; eventually, I concluded that bards should draw their abilities from Ploys, the same pool of abilities as generals and other leader-types. However, upon trying to design a "Rally" ploy, I thought about the current way fear effects are imposed in my game, and I realized that it probably isn't a very good system.

The current system has three tiers of "fear" as status effects: Spooked, Panicked, and Terrified. Spooked, being the lowest of the three, imposes a Vulnerability (direct increase to damage dealt) of 2 to all damage (since it's psychological, the extra damage is non-lethal), and a -5 penalty to the Morale and Skepticism defenses. Panicked increases the Vulnerability to 5 and the defense penalty to -10, and makes it harder to move closer to the source of the panic. Terrified does not increase the Vulnerability or Penalty; however, the effected creature cannot move closer to the source of the effect (unless that's the only means of escape), and the effected creature also suffers ongoing nonlethal Psychic damage when near the source of the terror.

The way these status effects are imposed is what I don't think works. See, you currently get them from abilities that have the imposition of Spooked as an effect; if you're already spooked, you instead become panicked, and if you're already panicked, you instead become terrified. The problem is that this does not adequately cover things that are extremely scary, and as such should go straight to panicked or terrified.

The only alternative that I can think of is for creatures to have "Morale Points," which would be sort of like Health Points, except they would specifically cover fear. After you lose a certain number of Morale Points, you'd become spooked, then panicked/terrified as you lost more. The problem with this is that there are already so many "points" that characters would have to keep track of, and the addition of morale points, in addition to the possible precedent that such an addition would set for other things, would probably mean that there'd be too much to keep track of. My players who are playing spellcasters, for example, are already having some trouble keeping track of their Arcane Points after they cast their spells...

Basically, I'm wondering if there are other options.

 

[Janx]

What kind of game are you designing? Horror? Heroic stuff?

Fear matter more in horror, less with Heroic stuff as PCs are generally fearless in that genre.

Personally, I am wary of rules that force behavior on a player. The player tends to resent it if it goes against his wishes of how the PC is portrayed, etc.

I would rather instill a sense of fear in the player. For instance, Dread, the jenga based horror game uses the drawing from the tower to make players nervous/cautious about their next action.

the standard trope of having a threat that can kill/ruin a character works if the player is invested in their PC. Something that Cthulu misses if the game becomes Disposable Investigators style of play.

It might be interesting to sort of model how adults (kid reactions to fear are melodramatic and often nonsensical) react to fear. As most players see their PCs as heroic, I'd maybe filter out completely ludicrous responses (like nearly crashing a truck because a friend threw a plastic spider on your lap, true story. Not me.).

more desirable responses might be fight or flight. fear turns to adrenaline which helps the PC run away, or turns them into a fast fighting machine (every time I've been in danger, time slows down and I am more effective, not less).

somebody who's fearful, may be more likely to not take the lead position. They'll hang back, be the last to enter/jump out of the plane.

somebody who's terrified (ex heights) will balk at the threshold and be very difficult in prying them loose and out of the plane/into the room. Pulling them away from the fearful activity may be easier.

 

[System Ufera]

What kind of game are you designing? Horror? Heroic stuff?

Fear matter more in horror, less with Heroic stuff as PCs are generally fearless in that genre.

It's definitely going to be a more heroic game, which is one reason I'm worried that my alternative idea would set a precedent that would cause there to be too many things to keep track of.

Personally, I am wary of rules that force behavior on a player. The player tends to resent it if it goes against his wishes of how the PC is portrayed, etc.

It's a status effect with mechanically defined rules, not a license for a GM to take over a player's character. Trust me, I know what it's like when GM's do that, and I don't like it either. Either way, a player who wants a "fearless" character can make their character fearless by investing in the right stats.

more desirable responses might be fight or flight. fear turns to adrenaline which helps the PC run away, or turns them into a fast fighting machine (every time I've been in danger, time slows down and I am more effective, not less).

I have had an idea for an edge (my game's term for feats/perks) or something that would give bonuses while under fear effects. I just haven't made it yet.

 

[Janx]

It's definitely going to be a more heroic game, which is one reason I'm worried that my alternative idea would set a precedent that would cause there to be too many things to keep track of.

that should be the least of your worries.

For a heroic game, morale and fear as a constant mechanic, rather than a special occasion issue to deal with are going to be the enemy of heroic game play.

unheroic results are going to be triggered more often, if you measure fear and have it engaged "realistically". A soldier is potentially always "on edge" when walking through a building known to be occupied by enemies. Put game mechanics at play, and like critical fumbles, he's going to roll enough "yikes" moments to turn tail and run that make the player feel his PC is a coward.

Heroic games usually don't measure this stuff for that reason. Whereas a grim/gritty game would.

If you need your PCs to be scared, make the player scared for his PC. That should be the defacto starting point for a GM, regardless of if there are rules for fear/fright (thus justifying the results of those rules if they exist). A player should already to be considering running, before you thrust a rule on him that forces his PC to. If a GM fails to evoke a sense of fear/trepidation in the player, than any game rules are going to feel pretty forced.

That said, if you need a special monster to have actual fear effects, then make it a power/aura of that monster to put a PC on edge when in it's lair. Perhaps add a surprise penalty, making the PC more likely to jump back at the sudden appearance of anything (friend or foe), costing him initiative if its a foe. Perhaps a 50/50 chance to get bonus to attack or flee in terror. or just panicked unwillingness to enter a room where he "knows" the monster is.

This way, there's nothing to track for the player. The GM activates the effect when it matters, for the special Fearsome monster.

 

[System Ufera]

that should be the least of your worries.

For a heroic game, morale and fear as a constant mechanic, rather than a special occasion issue to deal with are going to be the enemy of heroic game play.

unheroic results are going to be triggered more often, if you measure fear and have it engaged "realistically". A soldier is potentially always "on edge" when walking through a building known to be occupied by enemies. Put game mechanics at play, and like critical fumbles, he's going to roll enough "yikes" moments to turn tail and run that make the player feel his PC is a coward.

Well, I never said it was a constant mechanic; I kind of thought that that would be made clear by my first post. It'll come up when fear effects are applied.

If you need your PCs to be scared, make the player scared for his PC. That should be the defacto starting point for a GM, regardless of if there are rules for fear/fright (thus justifying the results of those rules if they exist). A player should already to be considering running, before you thrust a rule on him that forces his PC to. If a GM fails to evoke a sense of fear/trepidation in the player, than any game rules are going to feel pretty forced.

The problem I have with this is the same problem I had with roleplaying DnD 4e Warlords. I, myself, never played DnD 4e Warlords (though I've seen others play them) because those characters are supposed to be expert tacticians and such, and thus they will be expected to be roleplayed as expert tacticians. However, since you're the one making your character's decisions, how tactically smart you are as a player matters more than how smart your character is, and if you're not tactically smart, your character will also not be tactically smart, no matter what your character sheet says. It's the same problem with GM's convincing their players that their characters are in danger; if the GM isn't very charismatic, it'll cause problems.

That said, if you need a special monster to have actual fear effects, then make it a power/aura of that monster to put a PC on edge when in it's lair. Perhaps add a surprise penalty, making the PC more likely to jump back at the sudden appearance of anything (friend or foe), costing him initiative if its a foe. Perhaps a 50/50 chance to get bonus to attack or flee in terror. or just panicked unwillingness to enter a room where he "knows" the monster is.

This way, there's nothing to track for the player. The GM activates the effect when it matters, for the special Fearsome monster.

See above. Basically, I agree that fear should be a special thing, but what I'm unsure of is the details of how it should be measured/imposed. The problem with the current system is the fact that it makes it impossible for higher amounts of fear to be applied quickly, and the problem with my alternative system is the addition of yet another thing to keep track of.

 

[Janx]

well, if you have fear stages, you could make the fear incrementor be more than +1. So seeing the really scary monster is +3 fear. Jumping you from Stage Zero to Stage 3 instantly.

Of course that's something that has to be tracked. You could use yellow beads (yellow for cowardice, get it) and hand them to players as fear effects stack.

each round in the presence of the fear zone would require a fear reaction check or something.

To limit the "undesirable effects" you could give players a list of 10 fear reaction options, and they choose (pre-game) 4 of the possible reactions their character has (thus giving them some choice in the matter when their PC acts uncontrollably).

I think your system would be simpler if you just had fear events be boolean, rather than progressive. No tracking to be done, you simply assign the Fear state to the PC when it happens (presumably determined randomly). Remove it when it's safe again.

In a real, life/death + fear situation, I don't know that fear has stages. You're either in a "holy crap we're gonna die" moment, or you're not. But my fear responses tend to be in the useful end, and any fear/danger I've been in has been measured in seconds, not minutes or rounds.

 

[System Ufera]

To limit the "undesirable effects" you could give players a list of 10 fear reaction options, and they choose (pre-game) 4 of the possible reactions their character has (thus giving them some choice in the matter when their PC acts uncontrollably).

Well, I was thinking that the best way to limit the effects of the debuff would simply be to resist the effects in the first place, or use various means (such as rally) to reduce the amount of fear. If, in playtesting, fear effects are revealed to be too hard to resist, I could make them less "accurate."

I think your system would be simpler if you just had fear events be boolean, rather than progressive. No tracking to be done, you simply assign the Fear state to the PC when it happens (presumably determined randomly). Remove it when it's safe again.

So, when fear applies, a random debuff occurs? That's an interesting concept.

 

[Jhaelen]

I'm not sure if a game needs three stages of Fear effects, but then again D&D 3.5 also had them...

 

[Tonguez]

I'd use a Morale system based on Will save, using a base DC 10 (threatened) + modifiers.

With success the PC overcomes their anxiety and carries on however if the fail then consider the Variance from DC (eg if I roll 10 vs a DC of 25 then Variance = 10 Panicked)

Variance
0-5 Anxious = -2 Morale checks
5-10 Spooked = - 5 Morale, vulnerable
15 Panicked = -10 Morale, vulnerable and cowering
20 Terrified = -10, vulnerable and Flee

 

[GMMichael]

Warlords . . . will be expected to be roleplayed as expert tacticians. However, since you're the one making your character's decisions, how tactically smart you are as a player matters more than how smart your character is, and if you're not tactically smart, your character will also not be tactically smart, no matter what your character sheet says. It's the same problem with GM's convincing their players that their characters are in danger; if the GM isn't very charismatic, it'll cause problems.

...and wizards are supposed to be expert spellcasters. Doesn't stop me from playing them, or casting spells.

Janx makes a good point about the game's theme: your PCs can't be heroic if the rules force them to be scared. And you make a good point about the GM's duties: some GMs can't instill fear in their players.

What to do?

• Write GMing rules. If there are reasons in the game for PCs to be fearful, teach the GM how to convey this.
• Impose subtle hints. You don't have to tell PCs that they're terrified, but you can give them some clues. If you impose multiple levels of fear, your PC might say "well, I'm three levels away from being able to control my character." So for example, impose an initiative penalty, a motor-control penalty (DEX, if you're using it), or vision penalty (eyes keep darting toward safety), but just enough take make a PC notice, but not feel out of control.
• Allow your PCs to roleplay. Don't use a fear mechanic, which is basically a penalty. Use a bonus for roleplaying the fear. In Fate, you'd offer a Fate Point. In Modos RPG, you'd award a Hero Point. In D&D 5, you could give Inspiration (although D&D has at least one fear level too).