D&D 5E Convince me we're doing the Warlock wrong

Lets go a step further with the analysis of the Warlock.
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I will say that I tend to agree with you on most parts of this. I'm playing a BP warlock, but with a Homebrew Patron that grants Medium armor prof, Shields, and the Defense fighting style; certainly hasn't been overpowered (I've been hit plenty), but it is a LOT more survivable than I am without. As well, a couple custom BP-only Invocations (Turning EB into a Melee spell attack, Granting a bonus action pact blade attack on the same turn as you use EB in melee, etc.) really made the difference. He doesn't outdamage the barbarian or the archer most turns, but he does what he's built to do quite well.
 

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My only concern would be constant caster novas in that situation, because I hear "1-2 fights per long rest" and my immediate thought is "wizard or sorcerer, baby! Ka-boom!"
Yeah, you and I would think that... but in our group, that's just not everyone's mindset. Recently part of the party was separated and two of them got jumped by 3 rogue-types... and they started the first round with cantrips. It did not go well. :)
 

I find it odd that you can add cha mod damage to a cantrip at level two but have to wait until lvl 12 to add it to melee. I think they should change the life drinker evocation to a temp hp or healing on every hit deal and create a new evocation allowing blade locks to get cha mod to damage right away. That would help close the gap a good deal.
 

I can't parse that. What abilities do temp HP have? I don't have a narrative, I'm commenting on a rule, so I'm not sure where you're getting that either.
Why would you bring up Temp HP? It was not in your post, nor my reply?

And you most definitely have a narrative you are trying to put forth... but whatever.
 

I find it odd that you can add cha mod damage to a cantrip at level two but have to wait until lvl 12 to add it to melee. I think they should change the life drinker evocation to a temp hp or healing on every hit deal and create a new evocation allowing blade locks to get cha mod to damage right away. That would help close the gap a good deal.

I have to agree: the Life Drinker invocation comes waaay too late to be balanced vs. Agonizing Blast, and I have no idea why. But I'm not sure how early it should be available. If by "right away" you mean "when they get their pact blade" I'm not sure I'd agree.

It's worth noting that Bladelocks get a 2ndary stat added to their pact blade attacks to begin with: either STR or DEX. Adding two stats, CHA+STR or CHA+DEX, (and throwing HEX damage into the bargain) might be overkill if it's available too early. If you make the Life Drinker invocation available early (for example, level 3?) you're likely to see some attempts to build warlocks with TWO primary stats (CHA/STR or CHA/DEX) which might necessitate dumping just about everything else. (Personally I use point-buy; this doesn't work for me!) So by level 5 you'd have a STR 16, CHA 16 bladelock with a greatsword casting Hex dishing out 3d6+6 twice per round.

Would that be too much?
 

I find it odd that you can add cha mod damage to a cantrip at level two but have to wait until lvl 12 to add it to melee. I think they should change the life drinker evocation to a temp hp or healing on every hit deal and create a new evocation allowing blade locks to get cha mod to damage right away. That would help close the gap a good deal.
Life drinker is meant to be a replacement for getting a 3rd attack/cantrip die around level 11. Unless you make Hex incompatible with bladelocks (which might not be a bad idea, given the concentration issue), a bladelock would absolutely have by far the best possible sustained damage in the game until level 11.

As it is, bladelocks are absolutely competitive damage dealers if they wield a 2-hander, have high STR and CHA, and can maintain Hex. Yeah, that's a lot of 'ifs', but I think the solution is to make the 'ifs' easier, not mess with the progression.
 

Life drinker is meant to be a replacement for getting a 3rd attack/cantrip die around level 11. Unless you make Hex incompatible with bladelocks (which might not be a bad idea, given the concentration issue), a bladelock would absolutely have by far the best possible sustained damage in the game until level 11.

As it is, bladelocks are absolutely competitive damage dealers if they wield a 2-hander, have high STR and CHA, and can maintain Hex. Yeah, that's a lot of 'ifs', but I think the solution is to make the 'ifs' easier, not mess with the progression.

Hmmm... I personally went with a Finesse weapon for my Pact Blade, but focusing on DEX has lots of other benefits (Initiative, high AC, good saving throw, etc) so maybe I shouldn't worry about not having a 2-handed weapon.

As for Hex, well no, I think I'd just as soon keep it, "concentration issue" or not!
 

I have to agree: the Life Drinker invocation comes waaay too late to be balanced vs. Agonizing Blast, and I have no idea why. But I'm not sure how early it should be available. If by "right away" you mean "when they get their pact blade" I'm not sure I'd agree.

It's worth noting that Bladelocks get a 2ndary stat added to their pact blade attacks to begin with: either STR or DEX. Adding two stats, CHA+STR or CHA+DEX, (and throwing HEX damage into the bargain) might be overkill if it's available too early. If you make the Life Drinker invocation available early (for example, level 3?) you're likely to see some attempts to build warlocks with TWO primary stats (CHA/STR or CHA/DEX) which might necessitate dumping just about everything else. (Personally I use point-buy; this doesn't work for me!) So by level 5 you'd have a STR 16, CHA 16 bladelock with a greatsword casting Hex dishing out 3d6+6 twice per round.

Would that be too much?

some very goods are brought up by you and some others.

Hex is fairly reliable, but wont always be there so I'd put it just behind superiority dice and definitely behind smite or sneak attack but not in this sucks sense. The fighter also gets action surge, better armor, and higher hp. I don't see anything overpowered in a slight boost to static damage since they are squishier and come with less defense. It places them closer to the rogue higher potential offense but if they do get hit they're going to hurt.

I think that's how I would like to see a bladelock work.

Edit: it might also be good to force the lock to choose. Add agonizing blast to your cantrip or pact weapon attacks but not both.
 

I have to agree: the Life Drinker invocation comes waaay too late to be balanced vs. Agonizing Blast, and I have no idea why.
Its there to make Eldritch Blast equivalent in power to a longbow user without feat support or Fighting Styles. When you get right down to it, someone using a Rapier is going to be doing less damage than someone using a longbow without more support. And that's exactly what happens. The problems are exaggerated for several other reasons, however.

Life drinker is the equivalent of the Paladin's Improved Smite. The idea is that, for weapon based classes, you get a boost in damage around level 11 or so to keep up with the dedicated spellcasters.

Fighters get their second Extra Attack. Paladins get Improved Smite for extra 1d8 per hit. Valor Bards get Magical Secrets to steal Smites or Bow spells, which are really good with the higher level slots. Favored Souls can consistently have Haste or Elemental Weapon up, plus bonus action cantrip damage that scales. These are milestones. Moving Lifedrinker around messes up the milestone progression.



The big reasons why the hexblade falls behind is due to being MAD (DEX/STR for hitting physically, CON for Concentration checks, CHA for spells and Lifedrinker), lack of good feat support, AC woes, dependance on Hex's Concentration, and lack of variety in viable weapon choices without multiclassing (yes, they can pick any weapon, but warlocks by default need DEX for defense too much to sustain STR weapons).

Simply adding in more damage doesn't address these problems, and, in fact, causes imbalance. Dipping one level of Fighter helps with a lot of the above problems; adding in more damage simply makes the Fighter 1/Warlock X that much stronger while still leaving problems for the non-MC blade.



Life drinker is meant to be a replacement for getting a 3rd attack/cantrip die around level 11. Unless you make Hex incompatible with bladelocks (which might not be a bad idea, given the concentration issue), a bladelock would absolutely have by far the best possible sustained damage in the game until level 11.
I'm going to say that you'd be better off making Hex a non-Concentration spell with Blade'locks. They're based off the old hexblade class, after all, its a huge part of the class flavor.

Actually, what I did is make the spell "demi-concentration." When you lose Concentration, the spell doesn't end - it just doesn't affect a target anymore. You can reapply it the next round. Still lasts for the full duration. This way, we're looking at preventing the stackable buffs, more applicable outside of combat, and more fun.

But, yes. Putting Lifedrinker so low would create issues when someone min-maxes.
As it is, bladelocks are absolutely competitive damage dealers if they wield a 2-hander, have high STR and CHA, and can maintain Hex. Yeah, that's a lot of 'ifs', but I think the solution is to make the 'ifs' easier, not mess with the progression.

Hmmm... I personally went with a Finesse weapon for my Pact Blade, but focusing on DEX has lots of other benefits (Initiative, high AC, good saving throw, etc) so maybe I shouldn't worry about not having a 2-handed weapon.

As for Hex, well no, I think I'd just as soon keep it, "concentration issue" or not!
Part of the issue is that Heavy weapons are flat out superior to Finesse weapons. DEX-based weapons usually end up keeping pace with the two handed stuff because of things like the right Fighting Style, Dueling with shield mastery, or class support from the Rogue, Monk, etc.

The Warlock just isn't getting that support to maintain a duelist style. Using a bonus action to make an attack is crap without the TW FS, and only Polearm / Great Weapon Mastery give bonus action Cleaving. Other duelist options are shields, which aren't standard for the warlock either.
 
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I don't understand why people are upset that Hexblades don't do "as much damage" as... what, warriors?... with their weapon. You get to materialize any weapon you choose and it counts as magic. That's pretty awesome. Why is that not enough?

I think others have addressed this, but the way I would phrase it is not that the problem is that bladelocks don't do as much damage as warriors (they would be overpowered if they did), but that they don't do as much damage as warlocks.

We probably average .3 short rests per long. As in, about one in three "adventuring days" gets a short rest.

Lol, no it's pretty natural, really. We're not really into "filler." If there's a cave with a couple of goblins here, 3 over there, 12 here, and 4 here - and 6 here and 9 there and 2 there and 3 there - that's just... boring. (To us.) Guards, tricky trap, boss, done. We just hit the highlights and leave the "wear down gradually over 3 play sessions" stuff by the wayside; who has time to fight goblins for like 2 months? It's just not that interesting. So it sort of works both ways; we don't take many short rests, but we don't need as many, either. Plus our group is more social anyway, which also doesn't really fit the "8-10 encounters in one day" baseline that 5.0 apparently has.

I will note that warlocks have spells that are useful in interaction and exploration too--not just combat. So those rests can really help out. Is your DM aware of the assumed number of short rests per long rest? If I didn't know it, I'd like my players to inform me of it, particularly if it was relevant to a class someone was playing. The DM might be willing to change the class, change the length of a short rest, or just handwave short rests and say you are assumed to have the benefit of them whenever you enter non-combat situation.
 

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