D&D 5E Convince me we're doing the Warlock wrong

Lets go a step further with the analysis of the Warlock.

Blade Pact was literally designed to work with the Fiend Patron (hexblade), Fey Patrons synergize with Book Pact the best (oWarlock), and GOO Patrons lend themselves to the best Chain Pact ("binder"). The binder part is reference to the 4e Binder, which was more about "binding" existing monsters and some summoning, as opposed to the 3e Binder, which likely will make a return as the Vestige Patron again.

I also submit that Agonizing Blast is meant to work with the Book Form, while the Repelling Blast works with GOO, based on the 4e incarnations of the Striker warlock (more damage) and the Controller binder (shift monsters around).

The Fiend Patron grants several abilities, but they all resolve around damage in some way. THP generation, making saves, reduction in damage, and the ever-fun Hurl Through Hell. Fiend-themed spells and invocations include more THP and direct damage, coupled with spells like Command that work well to provoke more physical attacks, or Blindness for combat advantage. Fire Shield, when combined with Armor of Aggy, is the ultimate retributive strike. The Blade is happy with THP, direct damage and battlefield control like this. The Tome? Not so much - while nice, the book prefers distant spellcasting, where THP and a good chunk of spells are less useful. Chain? Super familiars are nice, but they can't benefit from direct damage boost or thp.

The Fey Patron, meanwhile, seems to offer abilities that revolve around spellcasting. The first level ability is basically a short-rest spell to grant advantage. And a free spell a short rest is nothing to sneer at. Same with the more potent level 14 ability. Misty Escape is a pretty nice way to avoid damage from monsters, while the anti-charm thing is a very castery defense against mind control. Potent control spells, like Faerie Fire, Sleep, and Dominate Monster, coupled with defensive spells renowned to casters like Blink and Greater Invisibility, make this far better as a back row caster than a melee. I like calling these guys "witches" just to have something to differentiate them from hexblades and binders, and sounds less silly than book'lock.

The GOO and Chain go well together, because they both care the most about direct mind control, as well as shoving and pushing monsters around the field, especially into traps like Evard's Tentacles and Arms of Hadar. The abilities of the Chain to bind summons synergize well with the ability of GOO to communicate mind-to-mind with any sentient creature. You super-familiar works well after putting a creature under Suggestion to obey everything your voice says. They are both super-controlly.

Now, not saying you can't go other ways with these guys, but this is the most optimized way of looking at the group of them. They have the most synergies and styles that go well together. So, when we look at further to analyze the book, blade and chain, we can look in deeper detail at the warlock at her best compared to others.


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A level 5 fey witch is a rather adaptive and potent caster, though she has more in common with the old Illusionist / Beguiler / Bard style magic than she does with an Evoker or Sorcerer. Even though it only lasts one turn, using Fey Presence is actually a pretty potent spell to use against non-elves. The fear effect gives them disadvantage on ability checks and attacks for a turn, and can't move closer - this can be used to prevent the enemies from approaching a position, giving your party time to arrange themselves with little fear of OAs, or retreat as needed. If you've got grapplers or Shield Masters, now's a great time for them to strike as well.

By counting Fey Presence, we're looking at 3 spells a short rest before falling back onto eldritch blasts. You might not be a good blaster, but your charms and illusions are top notch, and Faerie Fire is one of the most potent spells in the game, and remains so through high levels. Start adding on a Ring of Spell Storing and Rod of the Pact Bearer, and we're looking at some very large number of very useful spells with very high accuracy and high save DC. It only increases when you hit the capstones and you start getting more spells a day.

Meanwhile, out of combat? We're looking at a wide variety of cantrips and Invocations that do some rather crazy things. At will disguises + Friend? Levitation or Jump? Any ritual spell in the game, most of which are divinations, plus a familiar to scout with? This witch has a competitive number of high-level spells for combat, and the rituals, cantrips, and Invocations for out of combat. She's not a blaster by any means, but as an Illusionist? Top notch.

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The GOO binder is a curious sort. The core of this build is two fold. 1) Using spells like Suggestion or Conjure Elemental to take over the actions of someone else, then using Awakened Mind to communicate with them, and the super-familiar from a distance, controlling their moves. 2) Using Repelling Blast, Telekinesis, or the Hadar spells to control monster movement. Combine to shove a monster into tentacles of doom.

Forget damage. That's not your job. No, your job is battlefield control in its most pure form - taking direct control of its members or reshaping it with something like Evard's Black Tentacles. This is a slightly GM dependent build, since so much can go wrong, but its fun tactically speaking. Its especially fun if you've got spear users, who love you for making monsters back off and come into range again so they can hit them with the reaction. The mid-levels of GOO are actually pretty blah- entropic ward protects against only one attack, which is lame against multiple enemies or a multi-attack enemy, though having advantage to offset someone in your face for an eldritch blast is nothing to sneer at. Thought shield is... well, psionic damage is rare, and telepathic monsters aren't that common outside certain plots. Thrall is hands down awesome, though highly GM dependent.

Also, remember that your familiar, if they're in combat, can take the Help action. This isn't an attack, so you don't lose your attack either, so they can grant advantages to others in melee or offset melee-disadvantage.

Out of combat, you can effectively understand any language, and between the familiar and spells like Visions of the Distant Realm, you can act like a far-seeing clairvoyant. Very cool. I actually prefer the imp familiar for a simple reason - its more likely to play along and shift into a cat or some other form that can Help you when you're doing a socializing bit, effectively giving you Advantage on pretty much any skill check you need. It makes a very iconic spider-in-the-web of thieves, controlling from the shadows.

Like I said, its very GM dependent so its actual use is kind of hard to judge between tables. I personally lean towards it being on the weak side, since its so easy for things to not work and that's frustrating, while permissive GMs make everyone awesome. But there's not a lot that's even remotely like it, so its power is hard to judge.

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Lastly, we get to the Fiend hexblade. Now, the Fey Witch was compared to casters like the wizard. The GOO binder didn't really have an equivalent. But the Fiend Hexblade? We compare that to the Paladin. I've written lots of stuff elsewhere about how the Fiend Patron is very much like an anti-paladin, or reverse paladin. Extra attacks, an improved smite/blade damage at 11 capstone, STR-based divine warrior versus DEX-based arcane warrior, they're both slightly MAD with CHA, CON, and their weapon attribute, etc.

Sadly, the fiend blade falls short in a lot of ways. HP is roughly equal thanks to THP generation on the warlock side. The paladin has access to all armors and Fighting Styles as a default. The fiend blade gets all weapons, but no FS, only light armor, which is roughly on par with mage armor; with MAD and lack of class support, that's some AC difficulties. At level 6, the pally gets +CHA to his saves, meaning that he's got a strong leg up on making any Concentration effects. At level 6, the Fiend gets 1d10 to one save, once a short rest. That's not good enough to maintain any Concentration.

At level 10, we're looking at resistance to one kind of damage; hopefully, you correctly guess what you'll be facing soon - protecting against slashing when your opponents all brought clubs and arrows is kinda annoying. What's really annoying is that, during the playtest, the level 10 resistances was against all damage, not just one kind. It was deemed too potent, so was over-corrected into its current fickle form. Meanwhile, the paladin has gotten two upgrades to his Aura for defenses.

The paladin gets several smites a day to boost damage. The blade gets Hex to match a greatsword build without Great Weapon Mastery, plus some Armor+Fire Shield to have a kind of reprisal effect are those retributive strikes equal to the smites? The mere fact its out of your control when that extra damage hits is notable, though we can put it down to stylistic differences. At 14, we get Hurl Through Hell versus a double-smite round (use a smite spell plus regular smite during attack round), which makes them even on that turn...

The warlock can conceivably go stealthy, which is handy if you invest the background and invocations into it. The paladin can heal, plus has whatever advantages his background gives him. Both make good social characters, but there's a number of skills that are necessary for exploration for both that they really need to invest in for a well rounded party. Perception is a nice skill, but that's harder to get for the warlock along with stealth.

We haven't touched the Channel Divinity features yet, which are pretty potent, nor any feats. The pally also has no need of Warcaster, whereas the warlock does have to consider his V, S, M spells, though limited spell slots and "necessary" buffs makes the hexblade a troublesome kinda-caster. The warlock does get a few cantrips and invocations for out of combat stuff, but most of the warlock's invocations tend to revolve around staying alive in combat.

What it comes down to is this - the hexblade is burning through every resource at his command to merely match the paladin when he's not even trying. And that's assuming we can keep up our limited spell slot Concentration spells, which doesn't look promising. Meanwhile, the pally gets a strong boost to his Concentration saves when its not even really necessary for him, can serve some nice roles when exploring and socializing.


And, while you're sweating all this, trying to come up with how to not be terrible in melee, since that's your thing, we see Eldritch + Agonizing Blast, just sitting there and offering the solution to our damage issues. Mechanically, the hexblade just has flaws in it. Its not a well playtested, thought out option.
 

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Is that actually true? I think that if temp hit points were considered real hit points for the purposes of a PW spell taking effect, the spell descriptions would say so.

Hm, rules as written aren't perfectly clear on this point, so I guess it's open to a ruling. I'd argue that if losing hit points makes you more vulnerable to Sleep, PWK, etc., and gaining hit points from healing makes you less vulnerable, then gaining temporary hit points should also make you less vulnerable. Doing what normal hit points do is temporary hit points' job, and there's no explicit exclusion of temporary hit points in those spell descriptions, either.
 


Hm, rules as written aren't perfectly clear on this point.
Yeah, that's the running theme with 5E. "Rulings, not rules!" Haven't you heard? *eyeroll*
I'd argue that if losing hit points makes you more vulnerable to Sleep, PWK, etc., and gaining hit points from healing makes you less vulnerable, then gaining temporary hit points should also make you less vulnerable. Doing what normal hit points do is temporary hit points' job, and there's no explicit exclusion of temporary hit points in those spell descriptions, either.
To be fair, even 3E was silent on how to resolve the interaction of temp hit points and PWK (at least I can't remember).
 

Jesus. Is everyone playing a full caster?

Have a word to your DM mate. Thats insane.
Lol, no it's pretty natural, really. We're not really into "filler." If there's a cave with a couple of goblins here, 3 over there, 12 here, and 4 here - and 6 here and 9 there and 2 there and 3 there - that's just... boring. (To us.) Guards, tricky trap, boss, done. We just hit the highlights and leave the "wear down gradually over 3 play sessions" stuff by the wayside; who has time to fight goblins for like 2 months? It's just not that interesting. So it sort of works both ways; we don't take many short rests, but we don't need as many, either. Plus our group is more social anyway, which also doesn't really fit the "8-10 encounters in one day" baseline that 5.0 apparently has.

I have a feeling the warlock would not fit in well with this playstyle either, though, since the feeling in this thread is that their strength is mostly dependent on how much time there is between encounters.

I'm curious, what kind of encounter structure do you use to have that happen? My own games have encounters rather sporadically, with lots of travel in between, which is why I'm using the Gritty Healing rest variant from the DMG.
Sounds similar, except without gritty healing; we're ok with fast healing because that's just not the point (as above).
 

Yeah, that's the running theme with 5E. "Rulings, not rules!" Haven't you heard? *eyeroll*
To be fair, even 3E was silent on how to resolve the interaction of temp hit points and PWK (at least I can't remember).

5E is pretty clear that temp HP aren't HP, going so far as to say they won't bring you back to consciousness and only work to absorb damage. I wouldn't count them as HP for anything. Compared to 3E they work completely differently, so you may have to take a step back to adjust.
 

Sounds similar, except without gritty healing; we're ok with fast healing because that's just not the point (as above).
Yea, sounds pretty similar to my own DM style, which is usually mooks->explore->boss. My only concern would be constant caster novas in that situation, because I hear "1-2 fights per long rest" and my immediate thought is "wizard or sorcerer, baby! Ka-boom!"
 

Sadly not only is extra attack a class feature but so is ability score increases/feats so a MC character tends to have lower stats and be weaker/slower/dumber/uglier than non-MC characters. Such poor design, ugh.

Yet they tend to have *more* of other abilities. You are selectively ignoring whatever doesn't fit your narrative.....
 


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