Yeah, that's how all the crossovers end the conflicts prematurely. That's the usual resolution - they scuffle then realise they shouldn't be fighting. The debate is predicated on the assumption that doesn't happen.
-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
JLA vs Avengers - who wins?
- Thread starter Morrus
- Start date
Yeah, that's how all the crossovers end the conflicts prematurely. That's the usual resolution - they scuffle then realise they shouldn't be fighting. The debate is predicated on the assumption that doesn't happen.
Almost, but not quite. The crossovers do that because they can't have anyone winning. I am, instead, noting that one of the people on the field very specifically has charisma and leadership as a superpower.
I mean, think of it for a minute - if the two sides don't know about each other beforehand, and Thor's lightning doesn't count as magic, then flat out -> Superman wins. He is stronger than anyone else on the field, invulnerable, can tolerate vacuum, and super-fast enough for convenient interplanetary flight. Technically, as Danny points out, Superman can just drop a friggin' asteroid on the Avengers, and everyone dies. He doesn't even need the rest of the JLA. Debate over. Happy?
But, I didn't see you remove any of Superman's powers because it made the fight end prematurely. So, why remove super-leadership?
Restricting yoruself to the physical knock-down drag out is what happens if your players aren't thinking creatively. Outside the box, I say!
Last edited:
trappedslider
Legend
Depends on which form MM is,there's a form where he is immune to fire and is considered to be the most powerful member of the JL by Batman,whose plan to take MM down if he were immune to fire is PlasticMan for a number of reasons.
As for the Flash, it would be depend on which universe the fight takes place, as noted in one of the number of cross over comics Marvel's universe doesn't have the speedforce and without that The Flash isn't very fast or powerful.
Back during the original Marvel vs DC event, it was noted by the folks behind the comics that Captain America would have eventually won the fight between him and Batman. It was also noted that during a team up cross over that Captain America was/is the superior tactician of both groups.
As for the power of the Hulk,it also depends on if you're going with the gets bigger and stronger the angrier he gets.
EDIT: Then there's the notion that Batman with enough time and planning can take down anyone anywhere......
First, GL can improve his visual acuity with his ring- he's created binoculars and telescopes before. Second, remember, the main limitations on an Oan Lantern's power are 1) the color yellow, 2) their willpower. He could make a personal GL Hubble in orbit for targeting purposes. Better yet, he could use an energy double to track and pinpoint his targets.
Hell, he might not even have to do that. Remember, Hal Jordan was selected and plucked from mid air in a jet by a dying Abin Sur...without line of sight, as I recall.
IOW, GL is at least as capable as Superman of simply flinging asteroids at his intended target(s) with accuracy (or without concern for collateral damage) as long as he keeps his ring charged and he has the desire to do so.
Add to that, the power rings allow GLs to manipulate matter at an atomic level and screw around with electomagnetic energies on (almost) all wavelengths. How do you think most Avngers would handle a burst of hard radiation. (OK, the Hulk would be happy to tan in some more gamma bursts...) Theoretically, GL could do an EMP. How Iron Man and the Vision would like that would depend on how strong it was.
Along with Superman, he is one of the few characters who can go into space, unaided. I don't think any Avenger can do that without changing their equipment- Thor and Iron Man have gone into space, but had special suits to do so.
Along with Superman & The Flash, he is one of the few characters who can travel in time unaided. Great for intelligence work...or for giving someone the Weeping Angel treatment. Time traveling Avengers stories almost always involved Kang's platform or some other device.
And there is no reason he couldn't use a combination of a force bubble prison followed by a fling into the void of space- all at extreme range- to take care of most targets.
Last edited:
I think the most interesting battles between the characters would be at the level of the paragon martial artists.
Batman is one of DC's most formidable martial artists...but he isn't #1. Sometimes, his focus gets in the way of the mission. In the short-lived Manhunter series, the finale had Bats and The Manhunter assaulting an enemy base- think of an updated mass martial arts movie combat.
While The Manhunter respected Wayne's prowess, he noted that Batman was getting slogged down by taking down the biggest and the baddest...while he instead cut through the minions like a laser through butter in order to get inside and take down the bosses.
And paragon level partial artists is one area in which- I think- the Avengers have a measurable numerical advantage in their membership.
The JLA has sported Batman, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Vixen, Hawkman, Hawkwoman...and not too many others. The Avengers can counter with Cptain America, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Black Widow, US Agent, Black Knight, the Swordsman, Hellcat, Mantis, Mockingbird, Moon Knight...the list goes on.
But for demigods who walk the earth? The JLA always has a full house. They had Captain Marvel (aka Shazam). They had Firestorm. They had Captain Atom. They had Dr. Fate. They had Mon-El.
Last edited:
trappedslider
Legend
Actually they removed the yellow weakness and now it's mainly Willpower and Charge...In one notable event John Stewart's willpower exceeded what the ring's capability.
The issue there is that the wearers of the GL ring don't generally have the cognitive ability to do orbital mechanics in their heads. Superman does.
It has been noted that they are limited by their own knowledge, cognitive abilities, and understanding, however - in order to make a construct put out kryptonite radiation, Hal needed coaching from Batman. Hal is not a world-class *scientist*. Guy Gardner was even less bright. He got beat up by a cat. Not a super-powered, Kryptonian cat. Just a plain-old, ornery yellow cat. One Green Lantern (Ch'p) died getting run over by a truck. Just a yellow truck. Not even in a fight. Which is to say, being a GL does not make one a genius. They are impressive, but not all-powerful unless the writers are forgetting themselves.
The real point I was making, however, is that while Supes is in play without restriction, the rest are superfluous. If we don't have the Avengers beating Superman, the rest of the debate is completely irrelevant. And the Avengers probably can't do that without knowing Superman's weaknesses.
Well, now you are probably stepping out of the movie universe, and into the comics universe. At that point, I thin you'll find that probably every major DC character has done time travel on their own at some point or other. But the *movie* GL has not shown this ability, has he? Not to mention, none of these time-travellers should be doing so unless it is *absolutely necessary*. Superman and the Flash don't travel in time *every instance* in which they might get beat up. It is not their Big Red Win Button.
As I said - if the Hulk throws a school bus at him, he is still squished.
(Actually, that's only traditionally - in the comics these days, the yellow-weakness has been removed.)
I'll just say that Hal Jordan- a test pilot- honed his mind and will to become one of the the most powerful members of the Corp, ever, and has done interplanetary- possibly intergalactic- travel. He'd be on my short list of GLs who could figure out how to accurately toss asteroids for effect.
As for school busses...well, he's handled yellow projectiles before, either by evasion or by scooping up something like some earth or pavement to use as a shield.
As for school busses...well, he's handled yellow projectiles before, either by evasion or by scooping up something like some earth or pavement to use as a shield.
Agreed - many of DC's characters have so much raw power, they don't need a whole lot of personal skill.
Well, now you are stepping far out of the movies on both sides for these. But, if we are to do that, we start having more interesting questions:
Dr. Strange has been an Avenger. This is your Superman-killer, because *magic*. Doc Strange, really, is about on par with a Green Lantern in most respects. Though, he can probably end the fight with one spell - toss everyone from DC into Dormammu's domain, and let him handle it.
Wolverine has been an Avenger. Now it gets interesting - as we have someone Superman can't beat to death! And we get to have the argument over whether Wolverine's claws can pierce Kryptonian skin!
Spider Man has been an Avenger. That gets rid of the surprise attack from space (spider-sense tingling!). Also, another effective paragon martial artist.
Black Knight has a magic sword, which may be an anti-climatic way of dealing with Superman. Superman and Hulk or Thor got at it for a few minutes of furious destruction, and the Black Knight quietly walks up and *stab*, it is over.
And if we include Sentry, who is admittedly mentally unstable, but has Superman-level powers....
It becomes clear that this way lies madness. The extended rosters of both groups are so large...
Last edited:
With respect, Danny, as one of the few people on the boards that has actually done orbital mechanics - normal humans *don't* do this in their heads. The error tolerances are too small. Unless super-intelligence is one of your superpowers, it ain't happening.
Fine. Dump a bucket of yellow body paint over the Hulk.
(Perhaps I need to mention - I find Green Lanterns in general to be sanctimonious twerps. They are, in their arrogance, worse than the Jedi Order, and bring about as much and more suffering to their universe. I am not a GL fan, and enjoy when they get their comeuppances. I will gleefully continue to find ways to squish Green Lanterns
)Similar Threads
