D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[pemerton]

IMO, because not all the attributes are created equally.

But in a game in which the GM decrees 16 STR and the rest 12s for everyone, not all classes are created equally. Why is the latter - which forces players to choose from unequal classes - more fair or balanced then letting players choose which of the unequal stats to place their 16 in?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The idea that it is jealousy or sour grapes to be irritated by one's PC being overshadowed by another - especially when it is a fighter overshadowed by a melee cleric who also has a full suite of spells - is ridiculous to me.

I believe it was me who brought up the melee cleric issue, at least, most recently. And my point was that the melee cleric issue reduces the point buy/die roll discussion moot in this instance, because regardless of the stats the fighter has, CoDzilla will be able to outshine him.

So if the basis of your argument in favor of point buy is equalizing that...you've chosen the wrong battle to fight because you've already lost.

To return to the language of a previous poster, to then say "I am not having fun because the CoDzilla is outshining my fighter.", it is not intrinsically rude or bullying to point out that the person should have chosen to play CoDZilla.

Furthermore, if the complainant is well versed in D20 gaming and knew of the CoDZilla option, complaining about CoDZilla does indeed start sounding like sour grapes.

 

[Crothian]

But in a game in which the GM decrees 16 STR and the rest 12s for everyone, not all classes are created equally. Why is the latter - which forces players to choose from unequal classes - more fair or balanced then letting players choose which of the unequal stats to place their 16 in?

The classes were not equal before and they certainly are not equal with that attribute arrangement. It should be noted I was not the one who wanted that attribute arrangement, someone else suggested that. Since the classes are not balanced anyway this is not forcing them to choose from unequal classes, that is already built into the game.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

A couple of years ago I ran a mini campaign in which all PCs were created with 3d6, in order. How did I talk my group into this? I promised them that every creature and every NPC would be generated exactly the same way.

It was a lot of fun. Some of the die rolls that hit and missed (both the players' and mine) were unbelievable. Casters (PC and NPC) sometimes struggled to cast the most powerful spells granted them by their level and there was a distinct lack of wands of CLW.

It was only a mini campaign because we were a group of old friends getting together for a week of D&D (something we hadn't done for thirty-odd years). But high scores? All relative.

For very short campaigns, I find the advantages of rolling are greater and disadvantages are much less important. For long campaigns I strongly prefer point buy. Based on previous discussions on this topic, my perspective here is quite common among experienced players.

Note that I am not making any ideological statement about one option ever being outright better than the other. They both offer advantages and disadvantages. How I weigh the advantages versus the disadvantages depends on a number of style issues about the specific campaign.

 

[Crothian]

And? This just reinforces the reasons why I, and others, prefer not to use rolled stats.

I'm curious have you personally run into situations where you were not allowed to use point buy?

I always felt the best argument for point buy and I bring it up because I haven't noticed it yet (I very well may have missed it as we are over 350 posts at this time) was when the player had a specific character in mind before the game starts. I've seen many players want to play a certain character but the dice rolls just don't really allow them to build their character. Not like point buy would certainly. I completely understand it when a player says they want to play a specific character and they don't want to roll dice because they might not get the attributes they feel they need for the character. That's really the greatest advantage I've seen point buy allow players to be able to do.

 

[Ranes]

For very short campaigns, I find the advantages of rolling are greater and disadvantages are much less important. For long campaigns I strongly prefer point buy. Based on previous discussions on this topic, my perspective here is quite common among experienced players.

Note that I am not making any ideological statement about one option ever being outright better than the other. They both offer advantages and disadvantages. How I weigh the advantages versus the disadvantages depends on a number of style issues about the specific campaign.

I understand. And I should make it clear that my post was not intended to champion rolling for stats as being inherently better than point buy. I simply found the experiment interesting and thought it worth mentioning as an illustration of how rolling stats can result in a fun and interesting game. I wouldn't have particularly wanted to run a long campaign based on 3d6 in order, that's for sure. It would have meant too much work for me!

I'm not stat-obsessed as a player and I'll create my character the same way as everyone else at the table. As a DM, I give players the choice.

 

[pemerton]

And their work might have been much more entertaining to read had they broken into block capitals half way through a sentence, every now and then. Good point.

The first authors I thought of were Hobbes and Locke. I only bothered to Google Leviathan. In introducing the Project Gutenberg text for Leviathan, the editor tells us that "Hobbes used capitals and italics very extensively, for emphasis, for proper names, for quotations, and sometimes, it seems, just because."

If you look through you'll see plenty of examples (eg in ch 6).

It's not any sort of crime against style or reason. Particularly on an internet forum, which permits a very casual attitude in respect of both.

 

[DaveDash]

I understand. And I should make it clear that my post was not intended to champion rolling for stats as being inherently better than point buy. I simply found the experiment interesting and thought it worth mentioning as an illustration of how rolling stats can result in a fun and interesting game. I wouldn't have particularly wanted to run a long campaign based on 3d6 in order, that's for sure. It would have meant too much work for me!

I'm not stat-obsessed as a player and I'll create my character the same way as everyone else at the table. As a DM, I give players the choice.

When it comes to giving players choice, if 4/5 players don't mind either way, but 1/5 players has a strong preference to point buy, you should probably enforce point buy.

I'm not going to be terribly pleased if there's a couple of other characters who end up with magically awesome stats, I've seen high stats dominate play before at low levels. Likewise, I also would feel for the player who ended up with all 10's. and 11's, like my dismal roll earlier, and that person WOULD weigh down the group. We'd be better off kicking them out of the party and hiring a NPC from the back of the monsters manual. We're adventurers and the LAST thing I want is for the plot to save us, everyone needs to be performing their best.
Then if you let that player re-roll, you might as well just use point buy instead. If someone wants to play the ugly, stupid, or whatever character that's fine. They can dump that stat.

Now, having said all that, I do understand the fun of rolling (I played D&D this way for many many years), but I believe everyone in the group has to buy into it for it to work.

 

[pemerton]

I believe it was me who brought up the melee cleric issue, at least, most recently. And my point was that the melee cleric issue reduces the point buy/die roll discussion moot in this instance, because regardless of the stats the fighter has, CoDzilla will be able to outshine him.

I mentioned melee clerics because [MENTION=67338]GMforPowergamers[/MENTION] did, and because I've had the experience personally in an AD&D game, where my melee cleric, due to superior stats, outshone the melee fighters. I'm not making any point about CoDzilla, which is an artefact of one edition of the game that I have played very little of.

I'm curious have you personally run into situations where you were not allowed to use point buy?

I am almost always the GM.

In the event that you are curious whether, as a GM, I have encountered circumstance where rolled stats lead to overshadowing issues, the answer is "yes". Hence my preference for non-random stat generation.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm curious have you personally run into situations where you were not allowed to use point buy?

my gaming group is not all of one mind... my roommate (the very guy who would be running on my night off, and as such not be an option for me to leave...being my house) is 100% on the random side...

he likes it because "That just how we make D&D characters." and doesn't really make half as good an argument as you do. However he also seems to have a blind spot for cause and effect... I say this because he is firmly in the balance argument on my side, he just doesn't get why stats matter for balance