Is it legal to Combine Feats?

[Dandu]

Personally, I look at it a different way: not, where does it say I'm allowed, but instead, where does it say I'm not?

Every feat has a set of rules stating the conditions required for use and no where (that I know of) does it say as a general rule that two feats don't apply at the same time, whether they use the same action/die roll or not.

Just my 2c!

But seriously, they both apply. Unless you think Fighters shouldn't get the damage bonuses from Weapon Focus and Power Attack at the same time. Which would be contrary to how the game is played.

 

[Water Bob]

Even so, unless the two Feats specify the same type of bonus, such as Morale or Competence, they should stack..

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I have no problem with Dodge and Cleave being used in the same combat round. In the OP, I said that I was asking about Feats that apply to the same action, such as an attack throw.

Like Weapon Focus and Power Attack. Both apply mods to the attack throw.

Although I think I've been persuaded to the way of thinking of those replying on this thread--even the jerks that can't participate in a conversation about a game without being snarky or Holier-Than-Thou.

Thanks to all for the replies.

 

[Dandu]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I have no problem with Dodge and Cleave being used in the same combat round. In the OP, I said that I was asking about Feats that apply to the same action, such as an attack throw.

Like Weapon Focus and Power Attack. Both apply mods to the attack throw.

Although I think I've been persuaded to the way of thinking of those replying on this thread--even the jerks that can't participate in a conversation about a game without being snarky or Holier-Than-Thou.

Thanks to all for the replies.

You're welcome!

 

[Water Bob]

You're welcome!

I wasn't directing that at you, Dandu. I think you and I posted at the same time.

 

[ksbsnowowl]

The classic on this was Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack, and the bag of chickens: Loose a small flock of birds near an opponent. Whirlwind attack, striking at each bird. When you kill it, Great Cleave into the actual opponent, effectively giving you some ridiculous number of attacks on the real target.

Except that Whirlwind calls for a full round attack action, and allows for no other attacks, such as the Cleave attacks.

So look out for that kind of creative BS, but otherwise, yeah they stack.

Just so everyone is on the same page, the bolded portion is only true in 3.5. That caveat did not exist in 3.0... which is when that trick was created. It wasn't illegal "creative BS" at the time it was discovered and used.

As I said I would do, here are a list of monsters that are simultaneously using two or more feats (usually Power Attack and something else) in their stat blocks at the same time, from the MM3:

Boneclaw (PA & Imp. Nat. Attack)
Demon: Sorrowsworn (PA & Combat Reflexes - note that PA specifies that the penalty/bonus applies for the whole round, including AoO's... if you could only use one or the other, it would need to list another attack line for use with Combat Reflexes)
Drowned (PA & Imp. Nat. Attack)
Dust Wight (PA & Imp. Nat. Attack & Imp. Crit)
Mivilorn (PA & Imp. Nat. Attack & Imp. Crit) -> This one is important because there are two examples, one that has Imp. Nat. Attack, and one that doesn't, showing that the advanced one gets to add it to the other two feats, and the effects of all are shown in the same attack.
Necronaut (PA & Imp. Nat. Attack)
Odopi (PA & Imp. Crit)
Quaraphon (PA & Imp. Crit; PA & Imp. Nat. Attack)
Rage Drake (PA & Imp. Nat. Attack & Imp. Crit)
Salt Mummy (PA & Imp. Nat. Attack)
Ssvaklor (PA & Imp. Nat. Attack [x2] & Imp. Crit)
Nycaloth (PA & Weapon Focus & Imp Crit)

 

[billd91]

Just so everyone is on the same page, the bolded portion is only true in 3.5. That caveat did not exist in 3.0... which is when that trick was created. It wasn't illegal "creative BS" at the time it was discovered and used.

My money is on that being a clarification of the intent of the original feat which seems to me to naturally preclude using cleave or great cleave.

 

[Umbran]

Water Bob, no offense, but ...

You should have stopped right there. Really. If you suspect strongly enough that you'll cheese someone off to try to protect yourself with a disclaimer, you should accept that you're about to cheese someone off, and thus make your statement largely non-functional before you even write it. A bit of tact, next time, please.

even the jerks that can't participate in a conversation about a game without being snarky or Holier-Than-Thou.

Yes, because this response isn't snarky or holier-than-thou, or passive-aggressive? Not so much for holding the moral high ground there, WB. Next time, just ignore it without comment, or report it, WB. Responding in kind makes nothing better.

 

[Water Bob]

I think I found something in the rules that actually supports my initial thoughts in the OP.

Note that I've only been speaking about multiple Feats that influence one action, like an attack roll.

The section on Stacking on page 21 of the 3.5 DMG speaks to this. Going by what it says there, technically, a character who takes Weapon Focus for the Bow (+1 attack) and also has Point Blank Shot (+1 attack and damage with the bow for target up to 30') does not get to use both modifiers on the attack throw. They wouldn't stack. It wouldn't be +2 attack and +1 damage at a target within 30'. It would be +1 attack and +1 damage.

So, I was actually correct in the OP...


....I think.


I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise by a good argument.







Also, that wold mean that Power Attack cannot be combined with a Feat like Weapon Focus, too. The effect on the attack roll would not stack.

Thoughts?

 

[ksbsnowowl]

You should have stopped right there.

You're right, I should have. My apologies.

I've been the player I described, though. Playing under a DM that didn't understand the game, and it was... not a fun experience. The experience has left me hyper-reactive to similar-appearing situations. An ingrained visceral response, if you will.

"What do you mean the Ring of Protection we found won't stack with my armor?"
"Don't question my authoritah!"

 

[Dandu]

I think I found something in the rules that actually supports my initial thoughts in the OP.

Note that I've only been speaking about multiple Feats that influence one action, like an attack roll.

The section on Stacking on page 21 of the 3.5 DMG speaks to this. Going by what it says there, technically, a character who takes Weapon Focus for the Bow (+1 attack) and also has Point Blank Shot (+1 attack and damage with the bow for target up to 30') does not get to use both modifiers on the attack throw. They wouldn't stack. It wouldn't be +2 attack and +1 damage at a target within 30'. It would be +1 attack and +1 damage.

So, I was actually correct in the OP...


....I think.


I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise by a good argument.







Also, that wold mean that Power Attack cannot be combined with a Feat like Weapon Focus, too. The effect on the attack roll would not stack.

Thoughts?

Look, Water Bob, this isn't how example characters, examples of feats being used in play, or the Rules of the Game articles by Skip Williams indicate that the game functions. If you really want to run it this way, that's your prerogative, but at that point, you really are playing a different game.