D&D 5E Assassinate

[Hriston]

What is even clearer is the intent of this rule and how it should work. Not some attempt to paint the RAW as the correct or even intended method of adjudicating surprise. It makes absolutely no sense the way you are doing it.

It makes perfect sense to me, but that's fine. You do it in a way that makes sense to you.

Why would a target get to take a turn if he does not know the attacker is there? Explain the fiction behind this, not some reading of the RAW that makes little sense in the context of the situation.

Initiative order does not exist in the fiction. It is a gamist construct that is established at the beginning of an encounter, i.e. before the first round, for the purpose of resolving actions each round. What does exist is that the target is unaware of her attackers, so she doesn't get to take actions or move, but her turn is considered to have happened when her initiative passes.

 

[garnuk]

Every turn has a begining middle and end, whether you take the turn or not. The question for assassination is if you take your turn, not if you had one to take.

Your turn ends when you delcare your turn to be done, and people wait patiently for you to finish. At the end of that, you do things which can only be done at the end, and nothing else is done during your turn. None of that however is related to the assassinate ability and the fact that you get a crit on anyone during the first round of combat that was surprised and didn't take a turn yet.

If you don't care about RAW and only are concerned with RAI, then it's the same conclusion. The intention is clear, and the written word backs up the intention. When one conflates terms though, it becomes possible to be confused as to what the RAW are. (Since often people will switch between take or have without realizing it)

 

[Celtavian]

It makes perfect sense to me, but that's fine. You do it in a way that makes sense to you.



Initiative order does not exist in the fiction. It is a gamist construct that is established at the beginning of an encounter, i.e. before the first round, for the purpose of resolving actions each round. What does exist is that the target is unaware of her attackers, so she doesn't get to take actions or move, but her turn is considered to have happened when her initiative passes.

A gamist construct intended to support a fictional/simulationist element such as someone sticking a knife in someone's back or shooting them with an arrow from an unseen location. All rules are generally gamist meant to simulate some aspect of fiction or reality unless they throw out any attempt to do so.

Why would you consider a good representation one where an assassin for some reason can't use Assassinate against a target that can't see him? How does the target see the Assassin or know he's being attacked if the assassin has not acted yet? How do you rationalize that in the fiction? Or are you completely unconcerned with the fiction?

I find your interpretation a very anal reading of the rule. It doesn't at all seem like the designers intended it. It makes no sense that the target of an assassin would somehow get to act if that target did not notice the assassin, thus avoiding the assassinate ability.

I wonder what percentage of people interpret the rule in the fashion you do. I wonder if the game designers agree with that interpretation given it does not represent the fiction the rule is attempting to simulate of the deadly shot from a hidden place.

I also don't understand how you can interpret them as having taken a turn if they don't get to act. Seems like they've lost that turn. Unless they spell that out for you, you view it as them having a taken a turn. Where as I view it as them having lost their turn due to surprise.

 

[Hriston]

Erroneous? I would like to see what the game designers intended before I assume you are correct. What seems erroneous is that someone would be considered to have taken a turn when they were unable to do anything on their turn.

Actually, under Other Activity on Your Turn, on page 190, it says you can communicate "through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn." Of course this counts as neither an action nor a move and so is perfectly permissible to a surprised creature. The fact that the surprised creature is able to do this indicates that it indeed is taking its turn.

 

[epithet]

While I agree with garnuk in his interpretation of the rule, I can perhaps help Hriston reconcile his divergent interpretation of the rule with letting the Assassin's feature operate the way it was clearly intended to.

Assassin sneaks up on Target and gets surprise. Initiative is rolled. Assassin rolls poorly and is at initiative 14, Target rolls well and is at initiative 18.

On round 1, initiative 18, it is Target's turn. Regardless of whether you rule that he "takes" that turn no matter his ability to take an action, combat has not begun. Combat will not begin, in fact, until initiative 14, when the first attack is made by Assassin. Until that point, Target is not aware of Assassin and Assassin can change his mind and move along, and no combat will have occurred.

So, even if you must insist that Target has "taken" a turn, you should agree that Target "hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet," so the Assassinate feature should still apply.

 

[Celtavian]

Actually, under Other Activity on Your Turn, on page 190, it says you can communicate "through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn." Of course this counts as neither an action nor a move and so is perfectly permissible to a surprised creature. The fact that the surprised creature is able to do this indicates that it indeed is taking its turn.

So you think the game designers should have to write, "They can't even talk" to account for Other Activity on your Turn and include Surprise in their step by step combat to follow the intent of the rule? A person casually conversing is "taking an turn" as they walk? You're basically saying that any time an NPC is casually talking, or for that matter walking down the street or moving in any way, they aren't surprised? You really going that far? Basically saying no one can be surprised unless they're standing still and are completely silent? Is that your interpretation?

You don't at all take into account that not being able to see your attacker before he acts would preclude that individual from acting? That the way the rule is written is an alternate way of saying, "they don't get to take a turn"? You're pulling stuff like they get to communicate even though they don't know the target is there from Other Activity clearly not in anyway intended to be used in the situation you are applying it to.

Explain to me how they can be surprised because they don't know the target is there because the target has not yet attacked, yet somehow communicate as though they are aware? How can you have it both ways? How can a character act if he can't take actions and doesn't know the enemy is there?

You pulling RAW out of the books means nothing to me, especially when you're pulling out rules like Other Activity out of nowhere because this game doesn't have free actions. It is very much implied that you don't get to talk in a manner that makes it seem as though you are aware of the attack on your turn. I want to know how you justify it in the fiction. 5E seems very intent on focusing on playing in a fashion that does not break the fiction. You seem stuck on RAW interpretations of rules read in a very narrow, anal manner regardless of the fiction behind the rule.

 

[Coredump]

Once the mooks turn is over on 18 and it can take reactions it is no longer surprised.

while that is also the way I play it, that is not stated in the rules. In fact, there is *no ending* listed in the rules. Thus some DMs interpret it as you do, and some interpret it as lasting the entire round. (None that I know of have it last the entire fight, or entire session, etc.)

Also there is no surprise round, everyone rolls for initiative at the same time.

Which is exactly what I said.

So an invisible stealthed rogue perched on top of a building wants to shoot a wizard in the back of the head as he walks past.

Before he pulls the trigger on the crossbow initiative is rolled.

Wizard wins with an 18, rogue goes on 15.

Init is just an ability check.... in this situation I would give the rogue advantage on the check.

 

[Hriston]

Point 4 is telling you that everybody who is able to take a turn, does so in initiative order. And normally, everybody is given the opportunity to take the turn.

It doesn't say, "able to take a turn". It says, "each participant in the battle". Certainly even someone who is surprised and is being attacked can be said to be participating.

It doesn't say, "given the opportunity". It says, "takes a turn". You're adding all this language that's not there to prove your point.

Point 5, then uses language which shows acknowledgement that some people may not have been able to take their turn. (Especially if for instance they try to ready an action and it never goes off)

It's stretching the meaning of "had a turn" to say that it acknowledges that some participants were denied their movement and actions. It seems to me that "taken a turn" could be, and is, used interchangeably, especially considering the preceding text that describes everyone as taking a turn without exception.

I'm also extremely puzzled by your assertion that a creature that takes the Ready action is not taking it's turn. Are you saying that an assassin would get advantage against someone who readies an action in the first round before the assassin attacks if the readied action's trigger hadn't yet been met? What if the creature moved and readied an action? Would it then have taken its turn?

 

[Lidgar]

Everyone rolls for initiative at the start of any combat, even surprised creatures. When their initiative comes up the first time, they are surprised so can't take any actions or move, but it is still their first turn. Even if you can't do anything on your turn you have still taken a turn.

Correct, I did not mean to imply any differently (and this is who we run it), but I can see how it could have been interpreted that the surprised creatures would not roll for initiative, so thanks for clarifying. I simply meant that the surprised creatures do not get to take their turn, as they cannot move or take an action.

RAW, these are the steps:

Combat Step by Step
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone
involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters
and monsters are located. Given the adventurers’ marching
order or their stated positions in the room or other location,
the DM figures out where the adversaries are—how far away
and in what direction.
3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter
rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants’ turns.
4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in
initiative order.
5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the
combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until
the fighting stops.

 

[Ahrimon]

Wow the feats of logic are amazing in this one. *grabs popcorn* It's like a twisted Olympics floor show.