D&D 5E Surprise underrated abilities

[Sacrosanct]

One of the best things I'm enjoying about 5e? When someone plays a different character concept and finds out that some of the abilities are REALLY good in actual play. I've said it from day 1: you can't really compare the effectiveness of PCs against each other in 5e with theorycrafting, because you're missing a lot. This last weekend reaffirmed it again.

One of the PCs was playing a diviner wizard. Portent has to be one of the best abilities out there. It's almost (but not always) a guaranteed success on a saving throw, or more importantly, a guaranteed failure for your opponent. In two of the biggest battles the party had, my leaders (I was the DM) were shut down by the combination of hypnotic pattern and portent. I am cringing with anticipation to know just how the player will use it when he gets higher level spells, or applies portent to another class's ability to tag team a big boss I think the worst part is just seeing those die rolls sitting there, staring me in the face for hours with the player's grin that sends a clear message of "this low roll here? That's just for you when I want to impose it."

 

[bgbarcus]

I have been saying for years that divination is the most underrated form of magic in the game. If my players ever get the message I may regret saying it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Big bosses do not work in 5E if they are solos, regardless of which special abilities the PCs have.

Our group of 7 7th level PCs took on a solo Dragon Turtle last night. We crushed it (hard encounter according to Kobold Fight Club and the PCs took something like 120 total hit points in damage, less than 40% each on average and nobody went unconscious).

Since I am no longer the DM, I do not know if Dragon Turtles can speak or not in the straight MM, but this one did. My PC did try to warn it that it didn't have a chance to survive if it did not stop fighting right away. It ignored the warning. 3 rounds later, it was dead.


Many character concepts in 5E have spells or special abilities. Alone, these abilities rarely win a battle. But combined in synergies, they crush. In the case of Portent, it can take out a boss. But if the boss has helpers, it can just as easily result in nothing significant happening. It's the synergy of the PCs keeping the NPC helpers away from the boss combined with the portent/hypnotic pattern that results in such a strong overall effect; or in the DM not realizing that solos do not work in 5E and allowing such a combo to exist unhindered in his campaign. This combo becomes so potent if a DM does not see it coming and does not adjust his encounters accordingly (i.e. never run solos in 5E, and never run group leader battles where none of the NPCs can shake NPC leaders awake from Hypnotic Patter or Sleep, they are way too easy XP pound for pound except for a few unique ones).

My PC has the Inspiring Leader feat. By itself, it has rarely won the day. But it has saved so many healing resources that it easily results in 1 to 2 extra encounters per day and/or the PCs saving so many resources that more difficult fights become easier.

The power of effective PC combat in 5E is synergies. A few tricks like this Portent one exist, but they are also easily countered.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I disagree. In every case yesterday, the leader was not alone. Not sure why you think having minions there with a leader nullifies portent. The player chooses the target, so there could be a hundred minions there and the leader is still the one who fails the saving throw/attack roll/ability check. So it can be used to lock down the leader (hold person, etc) as long as it doesn't have legendary resistance, or it can be used to save your buddy who would otherwise be dead if that attack roll hit, or any other number of situations. None of those are impacted by if the leader has minions around them or not.

 

[Jester David]

Our group of 7 7th level PCs took on...

Your example isn't really a fair example of play. When you get to 5 PCs or more solos stop being effective because the action economy breaks down. No single enemy can do enough damage to enough PCs to threaten the party, even with AoEs since it's unlikely to hit everyone at once. Even legendary actions can't manage to keep up in that situation, being balanced for 4 PCs. The PCs just get too many attacks, too many combos, and too much synergy.
Each additional PC throws off the power curve, contributing more than expected.

 

[Jester David]

On topic, I'm a little surprised by bards.
I'm a bard fan, but was really hard on bardic inspiration because it's so easy to use it and then never have it come up. Which is certainly true at low levels when you get 3-4 per day and it adds 3 to a roll. Once you get d8s and they recharge on a short rest, things change. I've found them so-so for attack rolls, but they've been super useful when fighting anything that causes regular saving throws.

 

[KarinsDad]

Your example isn't really a fair example of play. When you get to 5 PCs or more solos stop being effective because the action economy breaks down. No single enemy can do enough damage to enough PCs to threaten the party, even with AoEs since it's unlikely to hit everyone at once. Even legendary actions can't manage to keep up in that situation, being balanced for 4 PCs. The PCs just get too many attacks, too many combos, and too much synergy.
Each additional PC throws off the power curve, contributing more than expected.

This can happen, though, with just 4 PCs, especially if the PCs can summon more NPC allies (like Conjure Animals), successfully cast AoE spells like Entangle, Web, or Hypnotic Pattern, etc. Granted, action economy is a lot stronger with 7 PCs than 4, but the same applies since the vast majority of PCs in 5E can cast spells or use spell-like effects (like a Battle Master fighter's Second Wind or Parry ability). More PCs mean more synergies, but the idea is the same. Solos do not work in 5E due to PC synergies (except Legendary creatures/Lair actions). A simple Bane spell can prevent 50 hit points from occurring by the solo monster regardless of whether there are 4 PCs or 7. And the game is not designed for just 4 PC parties.

From what you just described, it's not fair if the DM throws 4 normal foes and a dozen mooks at a 4 PC party.

 

[CapnZapp]

KarinsDad, is this thread about your mad monster slaying skillz, or is it about surprise underrated abilities?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Another one was the monk's stun. Well, it wasn't a huge surprise because you can kind of figure out beforehand that stunning is a big deal, especially until the end of your next turn.

But in actual play (I play a monk as my main)? Holy cow. Probably one of the most effective melee fighters in the party, which includes a fighter and barbarian. At 5th level, you have 5 ki and can attack up to 4 times, each of those spending a ki to attempt a stun. What other ability/spell out there gives you 4 chances to lock down an opponent in one action?

Let's just say that when I went against Vezmir in HotDQ, I stunned her in one round, even after her legendary resistances. Yeah, I rolled pretty well on my attack rolls, but being able to shut down via stun is a really big deal.

 

[KarinsDad]

KarinsDad, is this thread about your mad monster slaying skillz, or is it about surprise underrated abilities?

It's about whatever someone wants to discuss semi-related to the topic. I don't tell you how or what to post. There is nothing surprising about Portent and Hypnotic Pattern. I throw an entire round nerf on a foe when I control his saving throw. PC optimization 101.