D&D 5E Campaign Settings 5e- Why I want to Forget the Realms

[TheCosmicKid]

Ok, fair enough. Why aren't gods notifying their respective followers, with whom they can directly communicate, to deal with issues?

I'm not sure communication is always so direct, but nevertheless I'm fairly certain they are doing exactly that. You don't face off against a sinister plot to blot out the sun without the priests of Sunny McSunGod showing up to say hello. That's, like, their job -- both narratively speaking and in-universe.

Any realm-spanning plot would obviously affect their followers pretty negatively, and the higher ups can also summon/gate an angel who can then gate in more angels and deal with the problem.

A cleric powerful enough to gate in an angel is in pretty much the same category as an Elminster, don't you think? (Or a Mitchell & Webb sketch.)

Which sort of results in a MAD situation where the good and evil gods don't do this.

Getting back to the Forgotten Realms specifically, didn't the Time of Troubles happen because Ao decided that the gods weren't involved enough?

 

[I'm A Banana]

In FR specifically, since the Time of Troubles, I get the impression that a lot of FR gods are still kind of sorting out their own noise and are kind of in constant flux and still fresh to the job in a lot of cases. Even when they're "active," the most potent thing they do is make Chosen, and hey guess who is a Chosen/sometimes boyfriend of one of the most powerful gods in the pantheon, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Elminster and Drizz'zt can't appoint Chosen, they can't empower others to do their work for them (beyond helping out or offering advice to adventurers). They've gotta be involved. Which means when there's a world-spanning plot and they're NOT involved, sometimes it raises eyebrows.

AS a DM, my position has been, "If you want to know what's up with Elminster, go have your character ask him." The first time I went through FR, I threw Cthulu at it and wrecked the joint (this was before the Spellplague, but the fallout was similar), so the rumors of what happened to Elminster...or anyone else too tied up in the madness-inducing magic...were enough to keep the party off his doorstep. I think in my most recent game, I just don't have many hardcore Realms fans who have such questions, or who are grown up enough to understand that NPC's saving the day isn't in the social contract for the game.

 

[Irennan]

Getting back to the Forgotten Realms specifically, didn't the Time of Troubles happen because Ao decided that the gods weren't involved enough?

Ao was pissed that the tablets of fate had been stolen. He thought that too many gods cared too little about their followers and just put effort into increasing their power influence. As far as i can tell, he didn't want the gods to directly meddle more.

 

[hawkeyefan]

In FR specifically, since the Time of Troubles, I get the impression that a lot of FR gods are still kind of sorting out their own noise and are kind of in constant flux and still fresh to the job in a lot of cases. Even when they're "active," the most potent thing they do is make Chosen, and hey guess who is a Chosen/sometimes boyfriend of one of the most powerful gods in the pantheon, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Elminster and Drizz'zt can't appoint Chosen, they can't empower others to do their work for them (beyond helping out or offering advice to adventurers). They've gotta be involved. Which means when there's a world-spanning plot and they're NOT involved, sometimes it raises eyebrows.

AS a DM, my position has been, "If you want to know what's up with Elminster, go have your character ask him." The first time I went through FR, I threw Cthulu at it and wrecked the joint (this was before the Spellplague, but the fallout was similar), so the rumors of what happened to Elminster...or anyone else too tied up in the madness-inducing magic...were enough to keep the party off his doorstep. I think in my most recent game, I just don't have many hardcore Realms fans who have such questions, or who are grown up enough to understand that NPC's saving the day isn't in the social contract for the game.

I think player knowledge and expectation is the big issue. If you are DMing for someon who's read all the FR novels and gamebooks, that might make it harder to explain where Elminster is or what have you.

But if the players aren't as knowledgable, then it's usually a non-issue. You just go about your adventure and incorporate the setting NPCs or ignore them, as desired.

Elminster has never appeared in any of my games set in the Realms, and he's only been mentioned a couple times. And I don't feel it's ever affected the verisimilitude of my game.

If I was DMing for Ed Greenwood, maybe he'd disagree. But my players? They don't even notice.

 

[Remathilis]

Elminster and Drizz'zt can't appoint Chosen, they can't empower others to do their work for them (beyond helping out or offering advice to adventurers). They've gotta be involved. Which means when there's a world-spanning plot and they're NOT involved, sometimes it raises eyebrows.

Whose to say he's not involved in a less direct manner? I'm reminded a of a quote from Agents of SHIELD where Skye and Coulson are talking about letting the public know about a dangerous unidentified object (0-8-4)

Skye: We should warn the people who live around here if the 0-8-4 is dangerous. They're already dealing with anti mining rebels and the shining path guerillas. I could post something.
Coulson: Remember the panic when that anti matter meteor splashed down just off the coast of Miami, nearly devoured the city?
Skye: ...No.
Coulson: Precisely. Because we kept it quiet and contained.

Elminster's actions have to be like that, else he's going to trigger a Realmsian MAD event from every wizard powerful enough to teleport AND cast meteor swarm.

If something major happens and your asking "Where was Elminister?", chances are he did his job well...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Whose to say he's not involved in a less direct manner? I'm reminded a of a quote from Agents of SHIELD where Skye and Coulson are talking about letting the public know about a dangerous unidentified object (0-8-4)

Skye: We should warn the people who live around here if the 0-8-4 is dangerous. They're already dealing with anti mining rebels and the shining path guerillas. I could post something.
Coulson: Remember the panic when that anti matter meteor splashed down just off the coast of Miami, nearly devoured the city?
Skye: ...No.
Coulson: Precisely. Because we kept it quiet and contained.

Elminster's actions have to be like that, else he's going to trigger a Realmsian MAD event from every wizard powerful enough to teleport AND cast meteor swarm.

If something major happens and your asking "Where was Elminister?", chances are he did his job well...

FLAG ON THE PLAY!

except your analogy make elminister the equivalent of coulson and sky... the protagonists of the story... In my home game the PCs are playing skye, or Coulson, or elminister, not having them do the heavy lifting in the background

 

[Hussar]

I'm not sure communication is always so direct, but nevertheless I'm fairly certain they are doing exactly that. You don't face off against a sinister plot to blot out the sun without the priests of Sunny McSunGod showing up to say hello. That's, like, their job -- both narratively speaking and in-universe.

A cleric powerful enough to gate in an angel is in pretty much the same category as an Elminster, don't you think? (Or a Mitchell & Webb sketch.)

Getting back to the Forgotten Realms specifically, didn't the Time of Troubles happen because Ao decided that the gods weren't involved enough?

But no one complains about the lack of godly involvement. FR and other settings have numerous clerics high enough to cast Gate. In 3e there were several dragons also capable of the same. But I've never heard any complaints about this.

If the question is always "why isn't elminister dealing with this" then why isn't the same thing asked about the several dozen other npc's who are equally capable that exist in numerous other settings? Greyhawk is chockablock with similarly powered npc's. Yet for some reason everyone seems to focus on FR.

Looking at the published adventures and other canon, these heavy hitters rarely appear unless the party is of a similar power level. Which is good adventure design but doesn't explain why they don't save the day just like any other Mary Sue character.

 

[fuindordm]

If the question is always "why isn't elminister dealing with this" then why isn't the same thing asked about the several dozen other npc's who are equally capable that exist in numerous other settings? Greyhawk is chockablock with similarly powered npc's. Yet for some reason everyone seems to focus on FR.

The Greyhawk heavy-hitters are explicitly neutral/selfish. The Circle of Eight is a group of archmages that mainly care about protecting their own prerogatives and occasionally manipulating politics to prevent a superpower from emerging. This is very much in the Dying Earth style--the archmages aren't doing anything because they don't care.

 

[Jester David]

If the question is always "why isn't elminister dealing with this" then why isn't the same thing asked about the several dozen other npc's who are equally capable that exist in numerous other settings? Greyhawk is chockablock with similarly powered npc's. Yet for some reason everyone seems to focus on FR.


Looking at the published adventures and other canon, these heavy hitters rarely appear unless the party is of a similar power level. Which is good adventure design but doesn't explain why they don't save the day just like any other Mary Sue character.

Elminster and Drizz'zt can't appoint Chosen, they can't empower others to do their work for them (beyond helping out or offering advice to adventurers). They've gotta be involved. Which means when there's a world-spanning plot and they're NOT involved, sometimes it raises eyebrows.

Well, Elminster is an issue. But, often enough that's easy to explain as "he's dealing with an entirely different world-spanning plot" or "he's keeping his evil equals and other forces from getting involved".
Drizzt is different. His statblocks portray him as a high level hero, but he's really not. Most of what he does is local, small stuff in frozen corner of the world. He doesn't really do Realmshaking.

But, really, think of it like comic books. Elminster is totally Superman. And Drizzt is Batman, all broody and dark and confined to his own little corner. They can do some amazing things. But it's not like they're involved in every single world-spanning plot or story that threatens to destroy the world. Yeah, they're in the crossovers. But there's still lots of room for other heroes to save the day all on their own with no other heroes helping or even realizing. Sometimes even the Doom Patrol saves the world.

 

[Hussar]

The Greyhawk heavy-hitters are explicitly neutral/selfish. The Circle of Eight is a group of archmages that mainly care about protecting their own prerogatives and occasionally manipulating politics to prevent a superpower from emerging. This is very much in the Dying Earth style--the archmages aren't doing anything because they don't care.

Fair enough. But, if Tiamat is going to set up shop in Greyhawk, or Demogorgon is going to set off what is effectively a massive nuclear attack wiping out 3/4 of the continent, you'd think they might get involved.