• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

  • I want a 5E Warlord

    Votes: 139 45.9%
  • Lemmon Curry

    Votes: 169 55.8%

Status
Not open for further replies.
Referencing to the other area of what Hemlock was referring to (Martial Forced Movement), there are those of us who feel that not only is it not a "negative mechanic" (presumably negatively impacting immersion or some such) but actually a "positive mechanic" as it simultaneously (a) emulates genre and (b) enhances immersion.

Granted. Obviously someone must enjoy the mechanic or it might not exist. But do you acknowledge that adding new mechanics to a game that break existing design patterns can alienate some existing players, and that it's legitimate for that to happen? Do you, like EzekielRaiden, poo-poo the idea of reacting negatively to Ambuscade's ad hoc extra turn, especially if it were added to official material instead of playtest?

I'm not particularly trying to debate right now whether added mechanic X would be negative for players Y and Z. I first want to just settle the point that game design is not purely additive, and that adding material can potentially make the game worse, for some people, even if it makes it better for some other people. Ideally you'd want it to get better for more people than it gets worse for, but the negative impacts can exist. Agree or disagree?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Uchawi

First Post
If you're going to treat hit point damage as involving arms being chopped off, then you also get to explain how you sleep it back on. Apologies to any Newts reading this, but that's not normal where I come from.
The entire shouting back on body parts is bogus, because that ability did not exist in 4E or any version of D&D for that matter. Of course healing and hit points is pretty abstract, so a DM could interpret shouting as full healing just as easily as discounting it. From a D&D standpoint, only a regeneration spell or equivalent could attach limbs, not even standard cleric healing could do it. In 4E, you would have to create a ritual to do it.
 

Granted. Obviously someone must enjoy the mechanic or it might not exist. But do you acknowledge that adding new mechanics to a game that break existing design patterns can alienate some existing players, and that it's legitimate for that to happen? Do you, like EzekielRaiden, poo-poo the idea of reacting negatively to Ambuscade's ad hoc extra turn, especially if it were added to official material instead of playtest?

I'm certainly not disputing that. Common sense and the edition wars (those of every edition, not just the last one) make that indisputable.

What I am contesting is a couple things:

a) That martial forced movement and martial/inspirational healing is inherently nonsensical (in fact I'm saying it is more sensical than the alternative and many times over more sensical than other metagame constructs that are merely necessaries to facilitate the conversation and functional play of a crunchy TTRPG like D&D).

and

I first want to just settle the point that game design is not purely additive, and that adding material can potentially make the game worse, for some people, even if it makes it better for some other people. Ideally you'd want it to get better for more people than it gets worse for, but the negative impacts can exist. Agree or disagree?

b) That while there may be value in trying to tease out legitimate signal from all of the noise and self-selection inherent to the internet and other venues, it is a virtual impossibility. For instance, I've perused a few threads as of late that treat extremely contentious subjects like there isn't even any debate. I can only assume they are asserting this position (and many folks certainly know there is debate because they participated in vigorous discussion with others on the opposing side these last several years) is the case (no debate) because the fatigue of it all has led to a whole hell of a lot of people (I can think of about 25 off the type of my head, myself included) to discontinue the public playtest and cease participating in these boards much (in many cases at all) anymore. So the same stuff that used to get challenged is now thrown against the wall repeatedly as assertion and lack of a countervailing voice suddenly gives the "there is no debate" position some kind of mandate. There is a whole lot of "echo chamber" going on and it has nothing do with everyone being on the same page. It has a whole lot to do with the opposition losing interest and walking away rather than making a giant mess of things with an endless deluge of thread-crapping, trolling, and edition warring.
 

Winterthorn

Monster Manager
Lemon Curry. Generally I am open to a few more classes added to the game, as optional classes in lieu of multiclassing. That said, I think in the case of the Warlord, the Battlemaster martial archetype for the Fighter - with some further options added - would probably do for me. If the difference between martial archetypes is greater than the difference between the Fighter class vs a Warlord class, it won't be worth WotC's time and money - ppl might as well homebrew a Warlord class then.
 

I'm certainly not disputing that. Common sense and the edition wars (those of every edition, not just the last one) make that indisputable.

What I am contesting is a couple things:

a) That martial forced movement and martial/inspirational healing is inherently nonsensical (in fact I'm saying it is more sensical than the alternative and many times over more sensical than other metagame constructs that are merely necessaries to facilitate the conversation and functional play of a crunchy TTRPG like D&D).

and

b) That while there may be value in trying to tease out legitimate signal from all of the noise and self-selection inherent to the internet and other venues, it is a virtual impossibility. For instance, I've perused a few threads as of late that treat extremely contentious subjects like there isn't even any debate. I can only assume they are asserting this position (and many folks certainly know there is debate because they participated in vigorous discussion with others on the opposing side these last several years) is the case (no debate) because the fatigue of it all has led to a whole ---- of a lot of people (I can think of about 25 off the type of my head, myself included) to discontinue the public playtest and cease participating in these boards much (in many cases at all) anymore. So the same stuff that used to get challenged is now thrown against the wall repeatedly as assertion and lack of a countervailing voice suddenly gives the "there is no debate" position some kind of mandate. There is a whole lot of "echo chamber" going on and it has nothing do with everyone being on the same page. It has a whole lot to do with the opposition losing interest and walking away rather than making a giant mess of things with an endless deluge of thread-crapping, trolling, and edition warring.

I agree with you on point (a). I don't think they are inherently nonsensical, and you can run a game where they would make sense. Within the context of my game world physics as I interpret 5E it would be nonsensical, but that won't hold for everybody.

I also agree with (b), so much so that if there is controversy over it I'd be surprised. Ironically. :)

So as far as discussion between you and I goes, it looks like there is nothing to contest.
 

BTW, I took a look at Steeldragons' Warlord (fighter subclass) in the other thread, and it looks fine to me. It doesn't break any of the conceptual dimensions of 5E. Furthermore, the most potentially game-balance-breaking thing about it is the 18th level ability to add your Cha modifier to every ally's damage within 50', which is similar but superior to the Oathbreaker paladins' ability to boost undead in melee. And you know what? I'm totally fine with it being better. It's an 18th level ability after all, and it incentivizes the warlord to collect troops and become an actual warlord. I also like the bonus-action prone for similar reasons.

Also, I like the idea of adding more subclasses substantially more than adding new classes. It's less cluttered.

I mention it in this thread to show that some of those (like myself) who actively dislike certain kinds of Warlord proposals are just fine with other kinds of Warlord proposals.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
There are those who cannot comprehend how adding nonsensical mechanics to a game could damage the play experience for those who don't want those mechanics in the game.
If the Warlord had ever "shouted arms back on," then 'Warlord Healing,' wouldn't be an oxymoron, and the mechanics of it would have been nonsensical (perhaps still perfectly OK, mechanically, but as nonsensical as any other fantastical element when judged by standards of sober realism).

But that was never the case: It was just edition war rhetoric.

Now we have a concrete example of such a mechanic: Ambuscade on the UA Ranger. If Ambuscade ever makes it into 5E officially it will compromise the logic of the game world, make it harder for me to DM, and perhaps incentivize me to switch to another game. This holds true even when I can house-rule it back out of existence.
5e's style of presentation and prioritization of DM empowerment lets you exclude things you don't like about the Standard Game. When it comes to excluding optional elements (which any version of the Warlord introduced at this late date would be), it's a trivially easy matter of not opting in.

Bad mechanics impose a real cost on the rest of the game.
Bad mechanics do. A bad mechanic is not a matter of opinion, though, it's one that's actually problematic - broken, incoherent, imbalanced, unclear, or just plain not playable as written. But just because you don't like a concept a mechanic models or the way it models it doesn't make it bad.

And, there are mechanics that only become bad if you muck about with the assumptions upon which their based. In the example of making something like Inspiring Word literally 'healing,' for instance, by changing the meaning of hit points from the slightly unintuitive, abstract mix of factors first articulated (exhaustively) in the 1e AD&D DMG, to a nonsensical-in-it's-own-right all-meat variation. For another instance, changing the assumed day-length from an attrition-based 6-8 encounters to typically only 1 per day, renders daily resources imbalanced and a 'bad' mechanic. In neither case is it really the mechanic that's bad, though, they're each fine within their context, it's just that changing the context requires changing the mechanic in some way to fit it better.

To illustrate with both the above examples:
If you decide to institute all-meat hps in a game with some sort inspirational or other non-magical 'instant' hp-restoration, you could change that mechanic to restore hps only until the next rest or until the end of the encounter, instead (not healing, but not max-hp-exceeding temps, either, but something slightly inferior to both - and compensating them for the reduced effectiveness in some other way, like more hps restored or more frequent use).
If you decide to run 1-encounter days consistently, you could salvage and re-balance daily resources by making them 1/6th or so as available and/or making short-rest resources as powerful as long-rest ones (essentially there's no difference in availability between the two in such a campaign).

I haven't experienced "shout healing" but if it were explicitly nonmagical and didn't utilize a healing kit or at least physical contact/treatment, it would likely be a negative mechanic as well, for me.
That's a matter of your personal opinion and how you want to play the game, and it would be trivially easy for you to opt-out of any such optional material.

Granted. Obviously someone must enjoy the mechanic or it might not exist. But do you acknowledge that adding new mechanics to a game that break existing design patterns can alienate some existing players, and that it's legitimate for that to happen?
A personal feeling of alienation could be brought on by anything. A change in a perceived pattern of game design, an improvement in game balance that leaves a favored class less-unfairly advantaged, a different style of art, a smaller book format, a new font - anything.
It's an irrational, very human, unpredictable thing.

I'm not particularly trying to debate right now whether added mechanic X would be negative for players Y and Z. I first want to just settle the point that game design is not purely additive, and that adding material can potentially make the game worse, for some people, even if it makes it better for some other people. Ideally you'd want it to get better for more people than it gets worse for, but the negative impacts can exist. Agree or disagree?
When it comes to optional material, I have to disagree. Don't like a new thing, don't opt into it. Simple. The alternative is nothing more or less than dictating to others how they play the game.

Now, when it comes to the Standard Game, yes, material should be as balanced, inoffensive, and greatest-common-denominator* as possible. And, no, no game's perfect at that, either.



Edit: * trying to avoid the negative connotation of 'least common denominator' while still getting across the idea of maximizing breadth of appeal by limiting content.
 
Last edited:

aramis erak

Legend
What difference does it make really? At what point does the majority get to dictate to the minority that something must not be included in the game?

5e HAS martial healing. That's a fact. It's pretty common martial healing too - anyone who plays a fighter is likely using it multiple times per session. Never minding things like Hit Dice which are effectively non-magical healing aka Healing Surges, in all but name. Then you have a feat which allows healing as well. It's not like martial healing is absent from the game.

So, why would adding an optional class, which is not in core, be a problem for the majority?

Warlord is the only class that appeared in a PHB that got left out of 5e. They made space for gnomes to come back, so, why is it such a big deal that people would like the same thing for warlords? Why is this being painted as a zero-sum game? If we make warlord fans happy, warlord critics are going to be so sad that they quit the game? What possible difference could it make to someone who didn't like warlords for WotC to include an optional 5e warlord update?

The business equation boils down to:

who will quit over it being added versus who will finally buy in if it is...

Most of the people wanting it are already bought in, and so really do not count. And the holdouts aren't likely to be playing anyway, since they've got 4E.
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Exhibit A: Warlord shouting someone's arm back on.
(Mike Mearls said this wasn't possible!)

If you're going to treat hit point damage as involving arms being chopped off, then you also get to explain how you sleep it back on.

Bluenose is spot on.

Also, not only would one need to explain sleeping an arm back on, but one has to acknowledge that if characters are getting arms chopped off in-game, then the game being played has moved beyond the rules of the game.

Nowhere does the definition of Hit Points express that kind of granularity, nor does the game even have a mechanic for losing limbs.

The fact of the matter is that Warlord healing is fully consistent with both the rules of the game and the conceits of the game. There is no valid argument to disallowing Warlords other than personal preference; and personal preference is only a valid argument for disallowing it from your own personal table - not from the official rules.

However, if one did have elements like losing limbs in one's game, why would restoration of Hit Points necessarily require restoration of those limbs? Are real-life amputees somehow walking around with a permanent loss of Hit Points?

Hit Points can be restored, even by a Warlord, and a character can still have a missing limb - and an appropriate penalty imposed (at least until the character is deemed to have compensated, if the DM is so inclined).

Of course though, applying such a penalty is outside of the rules also - a houserule - same as characters losing limbs in the first place. It's perfectly fine to have houserules in your game; but again, such considerations aren't a valid argument for disallowing inclusion within the official rules, as long as the thing in question is consistent with the official rules and the game's conceits.
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
The business equation boils down to:

who will quit over it being added versus who will finally buy in if it is...

Most of the people wanting it are already bought in, and so really do not count. And the holdouts aren't likely to be playing anyway, since they've got 4E.

Somehow I think your evaluation of the way Mearls and Company view their business is seriously flawed.

Otherwise, how do you explain their work on Psionicists and Rangers?

Those are being designed for, and use feedback from, those who are already bought in on 5E.:erm:
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top