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D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

  • I want a 5E Warlord

    Votes: 139 45.9%
  • Lemmon Curry

    Votes: 169 55.8%

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Two things-
First, you can't really argue that there don't exist certain fantasy archetypes when you aren't familiar with some of the most famous fantasy archetypes out there. :)
Your saying that just because i don't know of something doesn't mean it doesn't exsist?
Like i'm arguing from ignorance?

Second- read them. Really. They are amazing, and a lot of the early D&D is modeled after their adventures- LoTR gets a lot of the (deserved) credit, but once you read their stories, you will see the genesis of a lot of D&D's ideas.
It's on my list.
I also intend to try the mouse RPG at some point. Seems like it could be fun.

Though i'm going though asimov at the moment.
 

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That's a little bit insulting. Perhaps you should have tried to read my comment for what it was- I was just challenging your kind of odd assertions about 1e and the 1980s, which were belied by my actual experience.
Good grief, I was there, long before 1e. I'm using 1e as a good baseline example as it has a fairly extensive mix of classes and is still pretty close in its themes and mechanics to OD&D. I see nothing 'odd' about any of my assertions. You would have to be specific.

The issue with your assertions are threefold- the first is that a retroclone of a Warlord class into 1e rules doesn't really fit, because 1e is a very different system. It doesn't mean it can't be done- but it wouldn't be anything like what you think of as a "warlord."
I disagree. Without going to the lengths of making a class writeup Tony Vargas already did a 2e writeup that seems perfectly reasonable to me. The main difference here is obviously 4e uses AEDU power system, which allows for a lot more variety of explicit class mechanics. As Tony has done I'd simply advocate emulating the core class features and several of the more salient general capabilities of the class (IE to direct your allies attacks, inspire them, impose disadvantages on the enemy, etc).

The second is that huge numbers of semi- and unofficial classes were created. Everything from duellist to swashbucker to incantrix. And I never saw a Warlord, or had mechanics resembling what you would call a Warlord, at the time. So, again, your assertions seem odd.
Well, the Cavalier from UA includes some warlord like elements. I'd have to sift through a lot of really old magazines and such to see what else falls out, but the concept itself isn't that new. Certainly when WotC wrote 4e they went back and picked out what they thought were central character concepts and rebuilt classes around them. Warlord was one of those. It doesn't come from nowhere.

The final one is saying that the reading material demands a Warlord- and Conan (for example) is the one of the best you come up with? I think that a slightly different archetype was created for him in 1e, both originally (as a fighter) and later (UA, 1985).

People making classes is an exceptionally time-honored tradition. Go on, make your own warlord class. Love it. But perhaps it might be best to not tell people what their own lived experiences are?
I can equally say the same thing, but I don't see where I've told you what YOUR 'experiences' were, I've just pointed out that it would be a perfectly valid and thematic class choice to include in any edition of D&D. Again, I know you hate it when I say this, but WHY ARE YOU SO ADAMANT about this? Its a very solid idea for a class that a LOT of people like, yet somehow there's this diehard cadre of people that insist that somehow 1e covered it all and nothing new should be added because it will actually ruin the game!!!??? WTF?

By the way- the monk thing is right. It's the whole, "We have a European medieval fantasy world. We're going to put in some kung fu, because that's cool. But, um, we're not really going to make that explicitly clear." But it doesn't support you- the monk class was controversial at the time.

I'm not sure what it "doesn't support". My mentioning the monk was to illustrate that even the classes which were included weren't always the most central concepts, some were just wacky stuff that someone (EGG) thought was fun. So lets stop worshipping that selection like its sacred and deviation is going to wreck the game.
 

Just on the barbarian and rogue, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser?

The Swords against... books by Leiber are so perfect for visualizing a classic old school D&D group. Not really good guys but not evil in the least. Going from one scheme or adventure to the next trying to get rich, but mostly just trying to make enough money to stay in wenches and wine for the next few months. Epic saving the world adventure its not, at least not purposely. They are curious about stuff they should just stay away from, and not above some thievery now and then.
 

I have yet to see a single literary example of a wizard/paladin/barbarian/druid/rogue that fits a playable RPG character model.

I have seen plenty of those archetypes. But it takes some serious mutilation to make them fit.

Seriously, Gandalf would not work in D&D.

Exactly. You could make every single character ever by using MU/Cleric/FM/Thief from OD&D. They won't all look exactly like their literary inspiration, but they'll all function at some level in a way that agrees with that character archetype. So, the argument "I can make Conan without a warlord" is also an argument against every single other class beyond the core 4.

The only meaningful discussion in this vein that can be had would be an actual analysis of what characters could be covered better by some proposed class mechanics than by what exists in the game already. This 'argument of necessity' reasoning just doesn't cut it, unless you're proposing that 5e shouldn't have anything but 4 classes without subclasses.
 


The issue is that nearly every character presented as a "warlord" is also a superb warrior. Conan, Aragorn, Dorian Hawkmoon, etc. don't spend the majority of their time commanding companions around and playing medic, they spend the majority of their time in the heat of battle and they are usually as good or better at physically fighting as the warriors around them.

King Arthur? Need I actually make citations for that?

Nor is anyone saying that these other characters have no fighting ability. I never proposed, nor has anyone else here AFAIK, a warlord that isn't a capable melee combatant. Dorian Hawkmoon certainly wasn't the greatest warrior evar! he was a leader, with a powerful magic item etc. Conan was maybe at one point a super warrior, but in a whole other cycle of stories he's a king, he can fight, but he's a leader. Aragorn actually NEVER fights himself, except MAYBE offscreen and once in Moria (and note that he and Boromir are running away, not trying to be big heroes). I think any of these characters could be depicted using a warlord class, and it wouldn't be any less appropriate than ranger, or barbarian. I can't think of ANY better alternatives for King Arthur or Dorian Hawkmoon. I'm sure I could come up with many other examples if I gave it even the slightest effort.

I'm not saying you CANNOT represent these guys with some existing class, you can always ignore the rough edges, and use the big 4 as I said in my last post. If there's no argument for warlord then what is the argument for ranger? Obviously if you are a B/X fan, then perhaps this is the endpoint of this logic. Its not a bad position to take, but its very odd for someone to take the in-between position that 1e/2e/3e/4e/5e have the ultimate last-word class mix and all else should be rejected.
 

Your saying that just because i don't know of something doesn't mean it doesn't exsist?
Like i'm arguing from ignorance?

It's on my list.
I also intend to try the mouse RPG at some point. Seems like it could be fun.

Though i'm going though asimov at the moment.

I vote for derailing this thread into a recommendation list for great fantasy fiction.

My latest favorite: "The Buried Giant" but Kazuo Ishiguro.
 

Fixed that for ya...
:p

Though, i could do that with pretty much any class.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. You don't want a bard class? You want a non-magical bard class? I should have included bard among my examples of classes that can be done other ways + roleplaying...or take away/over roleplaying agency for their player?

That's a separate thread. I'm sure if we try reeeeally hard we could have over a dozen threads spread across the forums arguing the existence [or not] and features of bards for 90 pages. Sorcerer too, for that matter ;P

But doesn't seem really necessary to do here.
 


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