• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

  • I want a 5E Warlord

    Votes: 139 45.9%
  • Lemmon Curry

    Votes: 169 55.8%

Status
Not open for further replies.
So if I post on a public forum, then it's OK to misquote me to support a mendacious argument?!!

And they don't mean the same thing. They are simply descriptions of Classes and what they are good at, not predesignated jobs they have to do in game. They do not operate in the same way as 4E Roles, and were not described as such. If this is the best people can do, then it is no wonder that things like Warlords and Roles are long gone in the game, and won't be returning any time soon.

Your argument holds no credibility.

Oh it's my arguement that holds no credibility?
Let us see the baseless statements you've made in just your last post:
• That I've quoted you (in order to misquote you)
• That roles are not an indentifier of what a class is good at
• That a description of what a class is good at and an indentifier of what a class is good at is not the same thing.

If this is the best you can do it's a wonder people take you seriously.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Well, people on this thread can not take me seriously if they want, but we'll all still wake up tomorrow and Warlords will still not be a Class in D&D5e. Have a nice day.
 

Permeton, when looking for a passage to define the 'roles' described in previous editions, as pertaining to those used in 4E, it may be useful to check whether any of the passages quoted actually uses the term 'roles' along with those of 'Defender', 'Striker' or whathaveyou.

These passages you have chosen merely describe the Classes in question and simply describe what they are good at - rather than there predesignated jobs in a playing party.
What do you think the difference is between describing what a class is good at and describing a class's predesignated job? I don't see any difference. The reason a fighter's "predesignated job" in 4e is to be a defender is precisely because that's what a fighter is good at. Nothing in 4e stops you trying to play your fighter as a leader, just as nothing in AD&D stops you trying to play your fighter as a support character who fortifies, protects and revitalises much as a cleric does. It's just that, in both systems, you'll find that your fighter is pretty weak at this function compared to a cleric. (And also in AD&D, if the GM is using the training rules, but not in 4e, you'll find it is harder to gain levels because you're playing your fighter in a spirit contrary to its "predesignated" function.)

In AD&D you can try to correct this deficiency in your fighter by multi-classing or changing class into cleric. In 4e, it can be done by (eg) multi-classing into a cleric and then taking a cleric paragon path (this is what the fighter in my 4e game has done, for instance).

As to whether the roles are exactly the same - of course they're not, 4e and AD&D are mechanically different systems. This was hashed out in a long thread 6 months to a year ago. The basic difference is that, in 4e, because melee is by default non-sticky there is scope for a difference between the striker and the defender roles (strikers exploit non-stickiness to impose damage while avoiding it, defender's generate stickiness and soak damage as well as inflict it) whereas in AD&D melee is sticky by default and so the interesting melee characters need to be able to both soak and inflict damage. The lack of in-melee movement in AD&D also means that there is not as much scope for forced movement as a debuff, nor for giving allies free movement as a booster - and so the "controller" and "leader" roles (using 4e terminology) are in some respects more narrow in their mechanical suites of options.

In Unearthed Arcana there is an attempt to create a class that might play a little bit more like a 4e striker - the Thief-Acrobat with its Evasion ability - but I personally don't think it was a great success, as the mechanic is clunky and the T-A's ability to actually strike is pretty limited. So Evasion basically ends up playing like a clunky variant on the monk's ability to avoid damage on a successful save - and the monk version is what ended up being implemented across both rogue and monk classes in 3E.

But in any event, 5e is in all these respects closer to 4e than to AD&D - melee is, by default, non-sticky and in-melee movement is part of the combat resolution system, and so forced movement and granted movement make sense.

4e was pretty flexible in the way that it grouped various suites of abilities - eg paladins heal, buff and "defend"; fighters strike and "defend"; invokers both inflict forced movement and grant movement to their allies; etc - and there is no reason why 5e can't be at least as flexible.

All of which is to say, there is nothing about 5e and its approach to roles that makes the warlord - a non-magical character whose schtick is granting movement to allies, restoring their hp, and otherwise buffing them - particularly inapposite or out-of-place.

EDIT: Here is the thread from January this year. I haven't reviewed the whole thing, but some of the interesting action seems to be taking place in posts in the 600s.
 
Last edited:

What do you think the difference is between describing what a class is good at and describing a class's predesignated job? I don't see any difference.

There is obviously a difference. Being good at certain things doesn't mean that you would therefore have a job to do that thing. It comes down to freedom of choice, basically. Moreover, the Classes themselves clearly offer one level of stereotyped characters (and has always been criticised for it).

We can argue a case for Classes, insofar that they offer 'niche' protection and clear narrative archetypes to aid with character development and ease of play, but we don't need another tier of stereotyped roles for them to adhere to also. As soon as you start trying to stereotype the actions of a Class by designating a job, you start working against an individual's ability to play a character how he/she pleases. You also create scope for contrived Classes like Warlords that are designed solely to meet the demands of these roles, rather than being archetypal in a narrative sense.
 

There is obviously a difference. Being good at certain things doesn't mean that you would therefore have a job to do that thing. It comes down to freedom of choice, basically. Moreover, the Classes themselves clearly offer one level of stereotyped characters (and has always been criticised for it).

We can argue a case for Classes, insofar that they offer 'niche' protection and clear narrative archetypes to aid with character development and ease of play, but we don't need another tier of stereotyped roles for them to adhere to also. As soon as you start trying to stereotype the actions of a Class by designating a job, you start working against an individual's ability to play a character how he/she pleases. You also create scope for contrived Classes like Warlords that are designed solely to meet the demands of these roles, rather than being archetypal in a narrative sense.

Except that you've exactly the same freedom of choice either way, so your argument is nonsense.
 


You do as much as you do in any other edition. Sure you couldn't be great at it, but neither could you in any other edition.
 

We can argue a case for Classes, insofar that they offer 'niche' protection and clear narrative archetypes to aid with character development and ease of play, but we don't need another tier of stereotyped roles for them to adhere to also. As soon as you start trying to stereotype the actions of a Class by designating a job, you start working against an individual's ability to play a character how he/she pleases. You also create scope for contrived Classes like Warlords that are designed solely to meet the demands of these roles, rather than being archetypal in a narrative sense.

Yes, you can make a gimmicky character that goes against the grain. But that doesn't change what they're made for, and they'd be doing a better job doing their own thing

As for Warlords being a character? No. They're not there just to fill the demand. Let's work at it this way

I want a leadership character. One who doesn't necessarily fight on the front lines, but is still there and can pinch in, but is mostly directing, advising people the best tactics. I want an Alexander the Great

Also I don't want him to be magical because magic is cheating. I don't want him to be a bard because he's not using music. I want someone who's sheer guts and charisma makes people put out 110%
 

Yes, you can make a gimmicky character that goes against the grain. But that doesn't change what they're made for, and they'd be doing a better job doing their own thing

As for Warlords being a character? No. They're not there just to fill the demand. Let's work at it this way

I want a leadership character. One who doesn't necessarily fight on the front lines, but is still there and can pinch in, but is mostly directing, advising people the best tactics. I want an Alexander the Great

Also I don't want him to be magical because magic is cheating. I don't want him to be a bard because he's not using music. I want someone who's sheer guts and charisma makes people put out 110%

Though Alexander the Great was in fact famous for fighting on the front line, and nearly died doing it. Inspiring Warlord, rather than Tactical.
 

yeah

Julius Caesar is a better example.

One of the greatest leaders of men, the defeater of Pompey (aka the man who effectively stopped piracy in the Mediterranean for several hundred years).

His skill is not with force of arms, but in his words and inspiration.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top