D&D 5E Insights on a Warrior Antagonist creation using the books

[Jediking]

But a 250 HP human who does 40 damage a swing? A human who punches like a storm giant and can take more damage than one.

...It's easy to handwave it with magic. And that doesn't really work.

HP isn't just about how many hits something can take. A storm giant could take way more physical punishment then even the best of non-magical human warriors, and it's ridiculous to think otherwise.

But a CR 12 Warrior Antagonist? He has inner reserves of resolve that focus his mind. He has fought and killed and conquered hundreds of opponents. He has seen (and pulled) most of the dirty tricks a fighter can. He is incredibly adept at judging his opponents and dodging or blocking their blows or spells with honed reflexes. HP isn't just about physical health, it's about fatigue and the will to survive and endurance and anything else that keeps someone on their feet.

So maybe he has as much HP as a storm giant. Maybe when a storm giant takes the hits and loses some HP, he'll laugh off the scratch and swings back, until the giant is streaming blood from a hundred cuts and makes a last rattling roar.

But maybe the Warrior nearly gets hit and the blades come too close for comfort and he starts to grow nervous. His HP drops, but physically he isn't touched. As the fight goes on he realizes maybe he finally met his match. This party, this opponent, is different. And the last strike comes as his confidence finally breaks and he hesitates just enough for Grognard the lvl 11 Fighter to deal the only "hit" that takes his head off.

 

[jgsugden]

Too much work. Grab MM. Look for a CR 12 monster with mostly melee abilities - something like a giant. Reskin. Done.

 

[S'mon]

Too much work. Grab MM. Look for a CR 12 monster with mostly melee abilities - something like a giant. Reskin. Done.

Yeah, this works ok. I ran a 5e game tonight and reskinned a gnoll fang of yeenoghu & its pack as Gungli Ma Hanuman ape cultists... Mostly it just involved refluffing.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The issue is its rather limiting. ... In the fantasy series and media where the orc warlord or black knight rival an archmage, the warrior is nigh unkillable due to their amazing toughness, absurd speed, extreme strength, or incredible skill. As D&D is a teamwork game with share duties at all times, PC warriors are not allowed such power or allowed to branch out to skill.

Yet, at the same time, PC casters do get all the tricks (and then some, and much greater flexibility in using them in the absence of author force) of even the villains in genre, that it's 'a teamwork game' notwithstanding.

So you can cobble together a pretty good caster ubervillain from the mechanics of PC casting - indeed, you probably give it /less/ spellcasting than a PC caster. But, trying to do the same for a warrior-villain falls short. You need to pull in the Legendary mechanics and the like, and design it more like a monster - the more you design it like a PC, the less well it works.

On a theoretical level, it's a consequence of D&D going 'Vancian' back in the day. The basic D&D caster has very powerful abilities that are resource-limited, so the longer the 'day,' the less overpowered he is. The basic D&D non-caster has only unlimited-use abilities, so the shorter the day, the less impressive he is. A monster in D&D likely shows up for only one battle, thus giving it limited-use mechanics designed for attrition-based daily-resource-managment (ie PC spells) makes it very powerful, since it can just blow them all in it's one appearance. Conversely, a monster using PC-style non-caster mechanics can be underwhelming, because they need 'all day' to come into their own.

Of course, 5e does give you the odd short-rest ability, and they're about right for a monster (per-encounter would be dead-on, but short rest is close). Action Surge used 1st thing in a combat would be perfect as a monster ability, for instance.

Well they killed the final boss early so I have to make a new one. I'm thinking about making a spear user. I could add defensive and offensive aspects to his spearfighting via range. Maybe an execution maneuver to add tons of bonus damage. Leak rumors that he kills prone or mounted foes instantly (AKA tons o' damage) and can disrupt elemental magic with special spear stances.

If you're familiar at all with the shenanigans reach-based fighters could pull in 3.5, that could be a fun place to start.

 

[NotActuallyTim]

Actually, I've been thinking of implementing a charge based system for non casters just because of this issue. The charges would permit non casters to straight ignore spells, and the number they received per level would vary by the number of built in spells they could cast. A similar number of charges could be added per CR to non caster enemies that are intended to be scary, much like legendary resistances and actions can be used to 'upgrade' an existing creature.

That way, powerful people and critters would be able to face down casters without anything else getting in the way of capabilities already present in the system.

 

[Minigiant]

Yet, at the same time, PC casters do get all the tricks (and then some, and much greater flexibility in using them in the absence of author force) of even the villains in genre, that it's 'a teamwork game' notwithstanding.

So you can cobble together a pretty good caster ubervillain from the mechanics of PC casting - indeed, you probably give it /less/ spellcasting than a PC caster. But, trying to do the same for a warrior-villain falls short. You need to pull in the Legendary mechanics and the like, and design it more like a monster - the more you design it like a PC, the less well it works.

On a theoretical level, it's a consequence of D&D going 'Vancian' back in the day. The basic D&D caster has very powerful abilities that are resource-limited, so the longer the 'day,' the less overpowered he is. The basic D&D non-caster has only unlimited-use abilities, so the shorter the day, the less impressive he is. A monster in D&D likely shows up for only one battle, thus giving it limited-use mechanics designed for attrition-based daily-resource-managment (ie PC spells) makes it very powerful, since it can just blow them all in it's one appearance. Conversely, a monster using PC-style non-caster mechanics can be underwhelming, because they need 'all day' to come into their own.

Of course, 5e does give you the odd short-rest ability, and they're about right for a monster (per-encounter would be dead-on, but short rest is close). Action Surge used 1st thing in a combat would be perfect as a monster ability, for instance.

Spells does help but that's only half the problem.

The issue is D&D 5th edition never solidifies what a high level non-monstrous humaniod enemy is. Bounded Accuracy escalates damage and hit points well past the known bounds. Humaniods are squishy and deal a little damage per hit. It's a tricky game to get as a high level threat and still fight and act like a humaniod.

If you're familiar at all with the shenanigans reach-based fighters could pull in 3.5, that could be a fun place to start.

That's the plan.

It's probably the key to fixing the problem. Each of the old cheese build of the past editions converted over to 5th edition NPCs. That makes their combats more humaniod.

The Tripper: The reach weapon user that locks opponents down in the prone position.
The Blender: The fast 2 weapon warrior with 8 longsword attacks
The Lancer: The 2 handed weapon user who deals crazy damage if he "charges"
The Grappler: The dagger fighter who grabs a foe, uses them as a shield, and stabs the over and over in the clinch.
The Feinter: The rapier and dagger user who feints with the rapier and sneak attacks with the dagger.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The issue is D&D 5th edition never solidifies what a high level non-monstrous humaniod enemy is. Bounded Accuracy escalates damage and hit points well past the known bounds. Humaniods are squishy and deal a little damage per hit. It's a tricky game to get as a high level threat and still fight and act like a humaniod.

You mean because PC hps can be lower than monster hps because of HD, teamwork, healing, and other daily-attrition factors, and that's the yardstick you're using for 'humanoids,' or that the humanoids in the MM don't happen to be high level - or both?

Because there's no reason you couldn't just give a humanoid a load of hps, if that helps.

It's probably the key to fixing the problem. Each of the old cheese build of the past editions converted over to 5th edition NPCs. That makes their combats more humaniod.

The Tripper: The reach weapon user that locks opponents down in the prone position.
The Blender: The fast 2 weapon warrior with 8 longsword attacks
The Lancer: The 2 handed weapon user who deals crazy damage if he "charges"
The Grappler: The dagger fighter who grabs a foe, uses them as a shield, and stabs the over and over in the clinch.
The Feinter: The rapier and dagger user who feints with the rapier and sneak attacks with the dagger.

Sounds like fun.

 

[Tony Vargas]

...double post...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Those magic items better dissolve in the sun.

Every arch-warrior is a walking treasure chest if you do that.

I have my own way to do it... I would make half of them things that require attunment, and the other half just duplicate... 10 +1 longswords don't help much if your melee combatants already have a +2 weapon

 

[Minigiant]

You mean because PC hps can be lower than monster hps because of HD, teamwork, healing, and other daily-attrition factors, and that's the yardstick you're using for 'humanoids,' or that the humanoids in the MM don't happen to be high level - or both?

Because there's no reason you couldn't just give a humanoid a load of hps, if that helps.

It's that humaniods and most of the monster type in the MM have a sort of template. A sort of style.

For example if I suddenly needed a CR 10 foe for a pit fight in a magical arena.

The Suggestion for one is:
AC: ~17
HP: ~206-220
Attack: +7
Damage: ~63-68
DC: ~16

If I was making a giant. I go on the high end of the HP, high attack in melee, make a huge weapon and have it attack with that,

Hill Giant Gladiator
AC: 15 (chain)
HP: 221 (19d12+95)
Attack: +9
Damage: Maul 24 (3d12+5)/ 2 attacks

But if I was doing a black dragon, I have a high AC, low HP monster with 2 claws, a bite, and a breath weapon

Sample "Young Adult" Black Dragon
AC: 19
HP: 161 (17d10+68)
Attack: +8
Damage: Bite 16 (2d10+5) plus 4 (1d8), Claw 12 (2d6+5), Acid Breath (11d8)

But a humaniod warrior? He or She is still swinging 11 (2d6+5) damage greatswords at best. And I have to give him 25+ HD to get to 200 HP. And humaniods does have enough resistances to get a HP adjustment. I can't have a human pit champion punching harder than the Hill Giant they fought in round 1. And tougher than it. Immersion broken. Luckily there is Action Surge and Indomiable.

I have my own way to do it... I would make half of them things that require attunment, and the other half just duplicate... 10 +1 longswords don't help much if your melee combatants already have a +2 weapon

I wasn't talking about keeping them. I was thinking selling them or pass them to retainers and henchmen.