D&D 5E So 5 Intelligence Huh

[Maxperson]

What are the polymorph rules?

In AD&D the answer is no - Polymorph Other gives the target the intelligence and competence of a frog. (If the change is via Polymorph Self then it's a different situation - the character's mental abilities are unchanged, though s/he may have trouble writing down answers.)

In 5e the answer is less clear, but is probably yes - Polymorph says that "[t]he target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality." The second sentence implies a general continuity of mental capability (a frog can't be aligned, for instance). So a PC polymorphed into a frog becomes more dim-witted (due to the penalty to INT) but still retains his or her essentially human personality, including alignment and, I would say, IQ-test-taking-ability.

It doesn't imply that at all. Personality is basic. An ornery barbarian polymorphed into a dog will be an ornery dog. A pacifist cleric will be a sedate dog. If it wanted the PC to have continuity of mental capability, it would have said so and not limited it to personality and alignment which are basic attitudes and which do not require continued mental capability.

 

[Satyrn]

I'd vote for [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s interpretation. If there was a vote.

 

[Ovinomancer]

What are the polymorph rules?

In AD&D the answer is no - Polymorph Other gives the target the intelligence and competence of a frog. (If the change is via Polymorph Self then it's a different situation - the character's mental abilities are unchanged, though s/he may have trouble writing down answers.)

In 5e the answer is less clear, but is probably yes - Polymorph says that "[t]he target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality." The second sentence implies a general continuity of mental capability (a frog can't be aligned, for instance). So a PC polymorphed into a frog becomes more dim-witted (due to the penalty to INT) but still retains his or her essentially human personality, including alignment and, I would say, IQ-test-taking-ability.

Excellent. Now, can a frog polymorphed into a human take an IQ test?

EDIT: assume True Polymorph is used, and the human and frog both have CR 0 (if you need, the human can be crippled physically or is a child).

 

[pemerton]

Excellent. Now, can a frog polymorphed into a human take an IQ test?

True Polymorph creature-to-creature says "The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality." By parity of reasoning, that would seem to imply that the frog probably cannot - it retains the unaligned and non-competent personality of a frog.

Polymorph also says that "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions." If we turn from the INT 1 frog to the parrot, whose INT must in the same general neighbourhood given that an eagle or owl has INT 2: a parrot can't speak (except by way of mimicry), whereas presumably a human polymorphed into a parrot, while having INT reduced to (say) 2, can continue to speak (though with less wit). And then, and by the same parity of reasoning as in the previous paragraph, a parrot turned into a human via polymorph presumably can't speak with fluency (retaining the personality of a parrot).

As a side note, it's not clear what the stats are when you polymorph someone into a human - the "new form" doesn't have default game statistics. (Surely the statistics aren't the notional average of 10.5. Or can slightly less bright students cheat on their exams by True Polymorphing themselves into human beings prior to sitting them, thereby boosting their INT scores?)

 

[Lanliss]

What are the polymorph rules?

In AD&D the answer is no - Polymorph Other gives the target the intelligence and competence of a frog. (If the change is via Polymorph Self then it's a different situation - the character's mental abilities are unchanged, though s/he may have trouble writing down answers.)

In 5e the answer is less clear, but is probably yes - Polymorph says that "[t]he target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality." The second sentence implies a general continuity of mental capability (a frog can't be aligned, for instance). So a PC polymorphed into a frog becomes more dim-witted (due to the penalty to INT) but still retains his or her essentially human personality, including alignment and, I would say, IQ-test-taking-ability.

I disagree here. A personality does not have anything to do with taking an IQ test. If a guy hates the PC's and get polymorphed into a frog, it is now a frog who hates the PC's, not the same enemy in the shape of a frog. An IQ test is directly connected to Intelligence, so I imagine this frog enemy would do about as well on one as a normal frog. As for alignment, I think that is only mentioned for mechanical purposes, because maybe the Evil guy is being polymorphed while on a Good aligned Plane.

 

[pemerton]

If a guy hates the PC's and get polymorphed into a frog, it is now a frog who hates the PC's

But does that even mean? A frog - with the genuine mental states of a frog - is incapable of hating anything.

 

[Maxperson]

True Polymorph creature-to-creature says "The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality." By parity of reasoning, that would seem to imply that the frog probably cannot - it retains the unaligned and non-competent personality of a frog.

I'm looking and looking and I see nothing that says frogs are non-competent. No hands and ability to speak in their natural body? Sure. That changes when polymorphed into a human, though.

 

[Maxperson]

But does that even mean? A frog - with the genuine mental states of a frog - is incapable of hating anything.

First, hate isn't a part of alignment or personality, so a polymorphed frog can hate if it becomes something that can hate, like a human. Second, I've seen no studies that show that a frog is incapable of hate.

 

[pemerton]

I'm looking and looking and I see nothing that says frogs are non-competent.

I didn't learn that from reading a D&D book. I learned it from my experience with, and reading about, real frogs.

First, hate isn't a part of alignment or personality

Well, I guess you can take that up with [MENTION=6801219]Lanliss[/MENTION].

Second, I've seen no studies that show that a frog is incapable of hate.

Frogs being incapable of hate would be a special case of the general phenomenon that frogs have no emotional life to speak of.

The emotions of amphibians is not my own area of study, but a Googling of that phrase brings up this paper, by a biologist from U Colorado who is very sympathetic to the notion of animal emotions (per Wikipedia. It suggests that reptiles feel some basic emotions (eg pleasure) that amphibians do not.

As far as hate is concerned, I'm not even sure that amphibians have the recognitional capacity to identify a person as an object of hate.

 

[Maxperson]

I didn't learn that from reading a D&D book. I learned it from my experience with, and reading about, real frogs.

I'm all for realism, but realism isn't RAW. The rules don't say any such thing.

Frogs being incapable of hate would be a special case of the general phenomenon that frogs have no emotional life to speak of.

That we know of. We're constantly discovering animals and plants capable of things we never thought possible.

The emotions of amphibians is not my own area of study, but a Googling of that phrase brings up this paper, by a biologist from U Colorado who is very sympathetic to the notion of animal emotions (per Wikipedia. It suggests that reptiles feel some basic emotions (eg pleasure) that amphibians do not.

As far as hate is concerned, I'm not even sure that amphibians have the recognitional capacity to identify a person as an object of hate.

Maybe. You never know, though. Perhaps flies don't really taste good, but rather they just hate the annoying buggers