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D&D 5E So 5 Intelligence Huh

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
On my previous posts about polymorph, frogs, and average humans (I shan't be going back now to find the posts to quote), I was very interested in the concepts being presented of what I'd characterize as the 'essential-ness' of a frog. I mean this is the sense of @pemberton's argument that a frog given human intelligence and ability would still remain a frog and as incapable of doing things mentally in it's new form as it was in it's old form, while a human would retain said capabilities, even if diminished, in frog form. It's consistent and rational, and I thank pem for expounding on the concepts.

However, I will have to disagree, merely on the basis that such a construct doesn't allow for Cinderella's lizard pets to become useful footman. Fantasy is replete with tropes of common animals magicked into useful persons and the idea that a frog can never rise above being a frog, regardless of improved ability, flies in the face of such tropes. So, in my games, frogs can take IQ tests (provided someone thinks hard on how to adapt such a test to the frog's physical capabilities, perhaps fly shaped levers?), they just do very poorly on them.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Just because I learned Battleship before learning and playing Axis and Allies doesn't make Battleship relevant in an Axis and Allies discussion. Basic is a different game.
This makes me think that you have little or no familiarity with the history of Dungeons & Dragons, and the various considerations that have borne upon its design and play over the years.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think that it would be clearly "wrong" to play a 5 INT as a super genius.
Given the incidence of IQ 180, or even IQ 140, people in the general population - at least according to the various charts that I have found via Google and that others have referred to - there seems to be very little danger of this.

Also, I am curious as to what you and others think should be the penalty or consequence for a player who plays his/her 18 INT wizard as if s/he had only a normal intelligence - which surely must be the case for the vast number of 18 INT wizards, given that (by definition) most players have more-or-less average intelligence.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Given the incidence of IQ 180, or even IQ 140, people in the general population - at least according to the various charts that I have found via Google and that others have referred to - there seems to be very little danger of this.
I find that argument to be a bit hollow. Arguing that it should be fine for a 5 INT character to be played as a super genius because the distribution of actual super geniuses is so low that it would be have a vanishingly low incidence of occurrence isn't convincing. You're declaring that it's okay AND a problem, but that it's chances of occurring are so low that that problem part isn't likely so it's really just okay to do it. Can't agree with your conclusion, there, even as I agree with the statements about likelihood. If it suits you, how about a 5 INT played as a very bright person, but not quite a genius, or whatever preferred vernacular you have in mind.
Also, I am curious as to what you and others think should be the penalty or consequence for a player who plays his/her 18 INT wizard as if s/he had only a normal intelligence - which surely must be the case for the vast number of 18 INT wizards, given that (by definition) most players have more-or-less average intelligence.

Just as I don't expect a 5 INT character's player to actually have a 5 INT, I don't expect a 18 INT character's player to have an 18 INT (whatever you decide that means, I really couldn't care less about the argument relating to equivalent IQs). In that case, if they're they remind me occasionally that they're playing a genius and ask what that gets them, I'd be glad to help out. On the flip side, if they were playing a low INT character and did similar -- ie, occasionally pointed out that their not bright and how that might affect them -- I'd do the same, help out. Or, more likely, let other players chime in. We typically model high intelligence at the table by allowing the group to discuss and plan collectively and then the high INT character takes the in game credit for the plan if it's necessary, say in presenting it to other allies. No one's requiring people to be actually smart or actually dumb to play their stats, it seems to me people are just asking for a good faith attempt to do your best at modelling your stats in an appropriate manner. I'll admit that I don't have a good definition of appropriate, it's like porn, I know it when I see it, but I find that a bit of discussion, an open mind, and referring to what the rules suggest are good starting points. If you have a creative way to roleplay your stats, high or low, and me as the DM and the group as a whole are good with it, let's roll. I'm pretty open about concepts and fluff, I like creativity and try to reward it. On the flip side, though, I dislike attempts to powergame around disadvantages by making them irrelevant.

As an example of that, much earlier in the thread Iserth had an example of playing a 5 INT character as a Sherlockian sleuth. I'm fine with that, so long as the player provided, for example, that this would be a delusion of the character, who isn't actually capable of Sherlockian deductions except rarely, and we worked in an appropriate check. Others may be initially impressed by the sleuth and his quick pronunciations of solutions, but would rapidly lose faith in the character's abilities after a number of likely failures (or not, who knows, maybe the dice were hot that night). I can work with that. What made me upset at Iserth's example, though, was that he said that if he roleplayed the sleuth as smart all night and never had to make a check, that he'd be good not ever telling the DM his INT was a 5. To me, that's bordering on outright dishonesty and cheating. Not the roleplay, but the intentional hiding of a disadvantage relevant to the play at hand. If I had a player do that in my games, they would likely be disinvited barring some other circumstance.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This makes me think that you have little or no familiarity with the history of Dungeons & Dragons, and the various considerations that have borne upon its design and play over the years.

It's a fact that Basic is a different game than AD&D. That they have similarities is irrelevant. D&D has many similarities with many systems.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Given the incidence of IQ 180, or even IQ 140, people in the general population - at least according to the various charts that I have found via Google and that others have referred to - there seems to be very little danger of this.

Also, I am curious as to what you and others think should be the penalty or consequence for a player who plays his/her 18 INT wizard as if s/he had only a normal intelligence - which surely must be the case for the vast number of 18 INT wizards, given that (by definition) most players have more-or-less average intelligence.

That's a failed argument. There is a big difference between being unable to play your PC as high as the stat is, and deliberately misplaying a stat as higher than it is. The difference is night and day.
 

On my previous posts about polymorph, frogs, and average humans (I shan't be going back now to find the posts to quote), I was very interested in the concepts being presented of what I'd characterize as the 'essential-ness' of a frog. I mean this is the sense of @pemberton's argument that a frog given human intelligence and ability would still remain a frog and as incapable of doing things mentally in it's new form as it was in it's old form, while a human would retain said capabilities, even if diminished, in frog form. It's consistent and rational, and I thank pem for expounding on the concepts.

However, I will have to disagree, merely on the basis that such a construct doesn't allow for Cinderella's lizard pets to become useful footman. Fantasy is replete with tropes of common animals magicked into useful persons and the idea that a frog can never rise above being a frog, regardless of improved ability, flies in the face of such tropes. So, in my games, frogs can take IQ tests (provided someone thinks hard on how to adapt such a test to the frog's physical capabilities, perhaps fly shaped levers?), they just do very poorly on them.

This is where I disagree. The int scores for frogs exist because the game mechanic requires them to have it. For example saves vs spell effects.

A frog that can talk is, in the worlds of D&D and my opinion, a frog in appearance only. It's a special case.

A common frog can't sit exams and work out complex problems. It will just never happen. This is how zoos work. And like so many assumed realities in a fantasy game world, no checks are needed for this.
 

pemerton

Legend
It's a fact that Basic is a different game than AD&D. That they have similarities is irrelevant. D&D has many similarities with many systems.
This is just bizarre! The difference between Moldvay Basic and AD&D is a commercial publishing strategy intended to resolve an IP dispute between Gygax et al and Arneson. As games, they are (for present purposes) the same thing: they are both iterations of OD&D. Moldvay Basic doesn't include the supplements; AD&D does.

The Blume article that talks about INT = IQ*10 is published in Dragon 8, July 1977. This conceit therefore predates the PHB or DM for AD&D, and perhaps the MM also (which was published in 1977, but I'm not sure which month). It certainly predates Moldvay Basiuc. So by your logic, if it has no application to Moldvay Basic then it has no application to AD&D either!

Another way to come at it is this: the 3d6 method for generating stats, with INT as one of those stats, was invented when D&D (original version) was invented. It's meaning didn't undergo some wild transformation when the AD&D PHB and DMG were published. It is the same process, with the same fundamental meaning, in all versions of D&D up until (perhaps) 3E, where the "modern" stat scale, which is not really bell-curved, is adopted.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I find that argument to be a bit hollow. Arguing that it should be fine for a 5 INT character to be played as a super genius because the distribution of actual super geniuses is so low that it would be have a vanishingly low incidence of occurrence isn't convincing. You're declaring that it's okay AND a problem, but that it's chances of occurring are so low that that problem part isn't likely so it's really just okay to do it. Can't agree with your conclusion, there, even as I agree with the statements about likelihood. If it suits you, how about a 5 INT played as a very bright person, but not quite a genius, or whatever preferred vernacular you have in mind.

<snip>

Just as I don't expect a 5 INT character's player to actually have a 5 INT, I don't expect a 18 INT character's player to have an 18 INT
My point is that I really think this is a pretty moot issue. A given player might player a character with 6 INT today and 15 INT tomorrow. His/her PC's spellcasting might be different from one character to the other, but the player reamins the same person, trying to have fun playing a game.

If s/he is playing a fighter, other features of the game and the class are likely to mean that his/her main mode of tackling the problems the game throws up won't be intellectual, but physical. Which is what Gygax meant by "playing a role".

it seems to me people are just asking for a good faith attempt to do your best at modelling your stats in an appropriate manner.

<snip>

much earlier in the thread Iserth had an example of playing a 5 INT character as a Sherlockian sleuth. I'm fine with that, so long as the player provided, for example, that this would be a delusion of the character, who isn't actually capable of Sherlockian deductions except rarely, and we worked in an appropriate check.
What does it mean to "model 5 STR in an appropriate manner"? That means you follow the encumbrance rules, and apply the appropriate penalty to melee attacks.

Why is INT any different?

The key issue here, to my mind, which I've reiterated multiple times but on which I've seen no reply, is this: a wizard with a 5 STR is a perfectly playable character, whose player will have no trouble fully engaging with the challenges of the game. But as many in this thread are presenting it, a fighter with a 5 INT is not a character whose player can fully engage the challenges of the game, because to do so - to actually take part in what is, at heart, an intellectual pastime - is a failure of roleplaying.

I don't understand how this asymmetry is supposed to be justified.

If the GM wants the fighter to suffer for having a low INT, put in a lot of maze spells and languages that need deciphering!
 


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