D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

Onslaught

Explorer
Not necessarily success being determined in advance, but the resolution being determined in advance and known to the player in advance. I can do most anything in 5E, but the resolution isn't likely to be specified in advance and/or known to me.

Doubt: the problem is to "know the resolution in advance" or "know the odds of resolutuion in advance".

Because to know the resolution in advance you must be sure you can't fail - like having a +9 vs 10 DC.

...

All in all, 5e does have some guidelines on skill DCs - but it takes a nice ability socre and some levels (and maybe expertise) to really be good enought so you'll hardly fail.

On the other hand, in 4e the DC always followed your evolution. For me it was as if my character hadn't got better at doing stuff.

...

Since you're playing in the game in a few (couple?) days anyway... do you what will you be playing?!
 

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Prism

Explorer
Is it possible you mean, "Permission with guaranteed success?" Because you do have permission in advance in 5e! You may try to swan dive off of cliffs and try to land in the beer barrel. You may try to talk a dragon out of its treasure. You may try to sneak past the squadron of alert guards in the brightly lit room. You may try to stomp on the ground so hard that you send shockwaves that knock your enemies down. You can try all of these things. In general I try to avoid saying there's a right way and a wrong way to play, but if your DM says, "No, you can't do that" to any of the above, he's playing wrong. THAT would be loss of player agency, in my book. You should be free to try by rolling some dice. And the DM should be free to set the bar high.

The thing is 4e allows for a level of player control that I doubt very much any DM would say yes to in 5e.

For example if the players requested that they pretty much controlled the movement of the monsters, deciding which monsters attacked which party members, ensuring the wizard was safe at the back and that the enemy fighter stayed mostly out of the fight until the party was ready to deal with them, or the opposite, forcing the enemy wizard in melee with the barbarian, as a 5e DM you would almost definitely say no, especially considering there are very few abilities and spells that allow that level of player control. In 4e, a well built party with defender and controller could pretty much guarantee that. The players tend to force the issue with powers and marks that can remove much this kind of decision making from the DM. The players controlled the ebb and flow of combat if they wanted to.

This is one of the reasons I moved away from DMing 4e into 5e. As a DM I wanted some control of combat back without having to constantly build very specific encounters or deny the players use of their powers for arbitrary reasons
 

pemerton

Legend
Ultimately, though, doesn't it amount to either the same thing, as the DM adjudicates what features are available? Either that or a contentious arms race that spoils the fun for everyone?
Potentially. The same thing can happen if a player takes longsword specialisation, or archery style, or whatever for his/her fighter and the GM rules that no longswords (or bows, or arrows) can be had for either love or money.

Or the wizard PC knows fireball, and the GM rules that there is no bat guano to be found anywhere in the land.

D&D tends not to have explicit rules, or even guidelines, on how the GM is meant to handle these issues where player abilities depend upon elements of the shared fiction over which the GM has the final say. (Though as [MENTION=59096]thecasualoblivion[/MENTION] notes, 4e is a bit of an exception here, with a more explicit orientation towards "say yes".)

My own view is that once a player has an ability like that, the GM is expected to allow it to come into play. A bit like thieves stealing the MU's spell book, I think a little bit of infiction action denial can go a long way. (In this post, I give an example of when - as a consequence of adjudicating a skill challenge - a PC's familiar was temporarily shut down. At the time, this example prompted a long discussion in another thread of when shutting down abilities via adjudication of the fiction is fair or unfair, when it is best seen as GM force or a consequence of what a player has staked, etc.)

I find it interesting how you are tying "player agency" to "impacting the fiction" mechanically, as opposed to just narratively. It's not exactly how I think about player agency, but it's certainly a valid way of thinking about it.
As I see it, there are two main ways that the players impact the fiction.

One way is that they declare an action, and the GM says yes - so the fiction changes in the appropriate way, and the game moves on. Sometimes the rules might oblige the GM to say yes - eg the player casts a Wall of Force spell, and so now the GM is obliged to allow that a wall of force has been brought into being - and sometimes this is up to the GM. In D&D, traditionally spells (and other magical effects) have been the main way to oblige the GM to say yes. But there have been other examples (eg the yakuza class in the original OA book has abilities around contacts and calling on clan assistance that come pretty close to this; and as has been discussed in this thread, there are 4e non-spell abilities that can do this).

The other way is that a player declares an action, and the GM calls for a check, and the check succeeds. In this case, the more resources the player can bring to bear (bonuses to checks; rerolls; etc) the more control the player has over the outcome. I personally find it fairly satisfying for the player to be able to expend resources roughly in proportion to the extent that they care about the outcome. (In 5e this might be via Inspiration, for instance; and you can then get a reward cycle going if the player can earn the inspiration back by declaring the action in the first place, because there is an alignment between what the player cares about and how the goals/flaws etc of the PC are framed.)

In your terminology, is the first way what you mean by "narratively" and the second what you mean by "mechanically"?

presumably the DM would give really high DCs to anything that might "spoil" his narrative.

Personally this is how I WANT my games to be run. I want the DM to be a storyteller, not just a referee. If I'm about to break the plot I want the DM to make it very hard for me to do so.
I'm mostly a GM rather than a player.

I play games that are pretty traditional in their basic allocation of roles to players and GM. (At the moment, I'm running 4e and BW.) As a GM, I have a large amount of control over the backstory, and an even larger amount of control over the practical framing of the ingame situations.

But I don't see myself as a "storyteller" at all, nor is there a "plot" to be broken. I expect the players to formulate their own goals for their PCs. I'll frame them into situations that put those goals into play, and under pressure: what the PCs do is up to them.

In mechanical terms, the main thing I therefore want is reliable guidelines for how much pressure I'm putting the PCs under - in practice, I think this is a function of (i) DC setting (and hp setting, for D&D combat), (ii) player resources and (iii) consequences of failure. 4e is pretty transparent on (i) and (ii), and as I run it is pretty forgiving on (iii) - which gives it a very heroic tone.

BW is pretty transparent on (ii), and encourages being pretty forgiving on (iii) - it is one of the original "fail forward" RPGs - but is much more brutal on (i): it encourages the GM to use "objective" DCs based on in fiction considerations rather than level-based/pacing-based DCs (like 4e, HeroQuest revised or Marvel Heroic RP). As a result it plays much more grittily and can be pretty tough on the players as their PCs get hammered over and over (but, because of (iii), are still in the game and still struggling towards their goals).

5e is pretty loose on (i) - of the other systems I've mentioned it's probably closest to BW - but also rather loose on (ii), especially out of combat and outside of the spell system. It's also pretty loose on (iii). In that last respect it could probably be tightened up into a "fail forward" system, though I think there may be other elements of the system that collide a bit with that (eg 5e seems to be based around fairly tight tracking of the ingame passage of time, whereas "fail forward" works best when that is something that is open to flexible narration by the GM - not a fatal problem, but one that a 5e GM might want to be aware of). But that would still leave (ii) - which gets back, I think, to some of the OP's issues about "randomness" and the balance of power between the GM and the players.
 
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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
The thing is 4e allows for a level of player control that I doubt very much any DM would say yes to in 5e.

For example if the players requested that they pretty much controlled the movement of the monsters, deciding which monsters attacked which party members, ensuring the wizard was safe at the back and that the enemy fighter stayed mostly out of the fight until the party was ready to deal with them, or the opposite, forcing the enemy wizard in melee with the barbarian, as a 5e DM you would almost definitely say no, especially considering there are very few abilities and spells that allow that level of player control. In 4e, a well built party with defender and controller could pretty much guarantee that. The players tend to force the issue with powers and marks that can remove much this kind of decision making from the DM. The players controlled the ebb and flow of combat if they wanted to.

This is one of the reasons I moved away from DMing 4e into 5e. As a DM I wanted some control of combat back without having to constantly build very specific encounters or deny the players use of their powers for arbitrary reasons

I didn't realize that level of control was available in 4e... *but* always remember, no matter what the system is, that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. The PCs won't always be fighting dumb goblins. Sometimes they will be fighting smart goblins. Sometimes whey will be fighting NPCs with classes and levels who *also* have these abilities.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
But in all these systems, once the credibility test has been applied the DCs are set based on a table (for 4e, HQrevised and DW) or via a mechanically determined opposed roll (for MHRP), And to the extent that the game is properly designed (and I posted an example upthread where 4e breaks down at the upper end), the players have a known chance of succeeding at this DC, as well as a resource suite to bring to bear in pursuit of that.

I think 5e could be drifted in this direction, but I'm not sure that it starts there.

So is the concern that the DC of a given action is unknown to the player? While the rules don't say one way or another so far as I know, I try to always say what the DC and stakes are prior to the roll. I consider this one of my DM "best practices."

Even if the DM doesn't say what the DC is before the roll, the player can be sure that it's somewhere between 5 and 30 and that the DM is probably going to need to justify anything outside of 10 to 20 either via how he or she described the environment or by suggesting there are factors unknown to the character (or player) that are complicating the situation. Robust description and telegraphing are the "best practices" that apply here in my view.

And it should also be noted that we have to be talking about a DM who is acting in good faith and ruling in a reasonably consistent and fair way. Anything else and it's a DM issue rather than a game issue.
 

JonnyP71

Explorer
Even if the DM doesn't say what the DC is before the roll, the player can be sure that it's somewhere between 5 and 30 and that the DM is probably going to need to justify anything outside of 10 to 20 either via how he or she described the environment or by suggesting there are factors unknown to the character (or player) that are complicating the situation. Robust description and telegraphing are the "best practices" that apply here in my view.

From my own experience (with 4 DMs, myself included) this is what happens.. most DCs are in the 10-15 Range, harder ones push towards 20, and we will always describe the level of challenge 1st. eg the wall is dry and there are plenty of cracks that can be used as handholds (DC 10), or the wall is fairly smooth, what handholds there are are quite well spaced (DC 15), or even it is smooth, slick, damp and covered in Lichen (DC 20).

We don't give the exact DC beforehand, just a description. And we often don't rule as a simple yes/no pass or fail, we tend to take into account near misses for example - depending on the type of check required though.
 

pemerton

Legend
So is the concern that the DC of a given action is unknown to the player? While the rules don't say one way or another so far as I know, I try to always say what the DC and stakes are prior to the roll. I consider this one of my DM "best practices."

Even if the DM doesn't say what the DC is before the roll, the player can be sure that it's somewhere between 5 and 30 and that the DM is probably going to need to justify anything outside of 10 to 20 either via how he or she described the environment or by suggesting there are factors unknown to the character (or player) that are complicating the situation. Robust description and telegraphing are the "best practices" that apply here in my view.

And it should also be noted that we have to be talking about a DM who is acting in good faith and ruling in a reasonably consistent and fair way. Anything else and it's a DM issue rather than a game issue.
For me, it's a combination of doubt about the DC and a relative paucity of player resources.

From your posts that I have read on these boards, you are probably at the more generous end in awarding inspiration (which is the generic player resource for checks in 5e) and the most "indie"-like in establishing clear stakes and DCs for resolution. When I talk about "drifting" 5e in a 4e-ish (or DW-ish, etc) direction that is the sort of thing I have in mind (both in the abstract, and your posts in particular). I'm not meaning at all to be derisive in calling it "drifting" and hope I'm not taken in that way - it's just that based on the posts I read yours is one fairly distinctive way of playing 5e and I think maybe less common or "mainstream" then the more 2nd ed AD&D approach which I think I would see as the default (to the extent that there is a default).

I don't know [MENTION=59096]thecasualoblivion[/MENTION] outside the context of these boards, but I think an approach to 5e that combined your style with that of [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] might well allay many of the concerns expressed in the OP. (I don't think positing that combination is quite calling for a mixing of oil and water.)
 

pemerton

Legend
I didn't realize that level of control was available in 4e... *but* always remember, no matter what the system is, that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. The PCs won't always be fighting dumb goblins. Sometimes they will be fighting smart goblins. Sometimes whey will be fighting NPCs with classes and levels who *also* have these abilities.
In 4e, as a general rule the NPCs/monsters don't have the same degree of control as the players. Instead, they tend to have bigger numbers (higher base hp; higher base damage, though the latter can be subject to quite a degree of table variation, depending on PC builds).

The basic narrative of 4e combat is therefore that the NPCs/monsters start on top of things, as they are beating up the PCs and are not going down themselves; but then, as the players draw upon their greater depth of resources (eg abilities that unlock healing surges and hence restore lost hp; limited use abilities that exercise a high degree of battlefield control; etc), the tide turns and the PCs carry the field.

On the GM side, the skill is mostly in coming up with an interesting suite of creatures and terrain that will introduce some enjoyable subtlety or variation into that basic narrative. On the player side, the skill is mostly in making good calls about which resources to use, and when; plus the kudos of doing it with less rather than more resource consumption.

In that sense, the two roles are not symmetric.
 

For me, it's a combination of doubt about the DC and a relative paucity of player resources.

From your posts that I have read on these boards, you are probably at the more generous end in awarding inspiration (which is the generic player resource for checks in 5e) and the most "indie"-like in establishing clear stakes and DCs for resolution. When I talk about "drifting" 5e in a 4e-ish (or DW-ish, etc) direction that is the sort of thing I have in mind (both in the abstract, and your posts in particular). I'm not meaning at all to be derisive in calling it "drifting" and hope I'm not taken in that way - it's just that based on the posts I read yours is one fairly distinctive way of playing 5e and I think maybe less common or "mainstream" then the more 2nd ed AD&D approach which I think I would see as the default (to the extent that there is a default).

I don't know [MENTION=59096]thecasualoblivion[/MENTION] outside the context of these boards, but I think an approach to 5e that combined your style with that of [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] might well allay many of the concerns expressed in the OP. (I don't think positing that combination is quite calling for a mixing of oil and water.)

The thing for me for 5E is that I can't count on the DM. If I'm in a situation where we're playing a home game where we're cooperating to make things enjoyable for everyone, it won't be a 5E game. There are enough players in my area that I don't have to play 5E if I don't want to. This being said, 5E in my area is dominating organized play, so if I'm going to be playing 5E it will be in that setting. I used to do a lot of organized play during 4E, and I kind of miss it.
 

You've posted this before, and I've replied before: I get the impression that you don't have much familiarity with how non-combat closed scene resolution mechanics (of which the skill challenge is an example; other examples are found in Burning Wheel - say, the Duel of Wits - and in HeroWars/Quest and in Marvel Heroic RP) are meant to work.

Here are some links to actual play examples of skill challenges. You'll see that in all of them fictional positioning is crucial to action declaration, as per the DMG discussion of skill challenges (at pp 72 ("More so than perhaps any other kind of encounter, a skill challenge is defined by its context in an adventure"), 75 ("t’s particularly important to make sure these checks are grounded in actions that make sense in the adventure and the situation") and elsewhere).

The key feature of the skill challenge, or its analogues in other systems, is that each successful check obliges the GM to move the fiction in the direction desired by the player, with ultimate success meaning the player (and therefore his/her PC) achieves whatever was at stake in the fictional situation.

In terms of combat mechanics, D&D has always been like this: a successful hit reduces hit points, and hence takes the players closer to success (zero hp). There is a contrast here with (say) Rolemaster or Runequest combat, in which a successful hit might not move the fiction forward at all (eg if the NPC makes a successful parry check (RQ), or if the hit does only a handful of concussion hits damage and the player rolls 01-05 on the crit roll (RM)).

Skill challenges are a device for applying this sort of closed resolution, with finality generated via players' successful checks, to non-combat resolution.


And the problem with that is two-fold: 1) is discourages any resolution other than dice rolling, and 2) it can often be used with nonsensical results.

In my experience, Skill Challenges were presented like this:

Here's a good one:

The door is sealed by a very complex arcane lock created by the priests of $EvilUnholyGod consisting of 8 parts. The players must unlock it while fending off the endless waves of $Minons assaulting them.

Skill Challenge: DC $PartyLevel + 15
Available Skills: Arcana, Dungeoneering, Religion, Thievery

Each skill can be used no more than 3 times. The PCs must succeed at 8 checks before 3 failures. After 8 successes, the door opens and the remaining $Minions flee in terror. If there are 3 failed attempts to open the lock, all unlocked parts automatically relock and an alarm sounds, summoning $EliteMonster.

This one is pretty good because there's tension between combat and unlocking the lock. It creates additional urgency and requires the players to work together.

Here's a bad one:

The caves are very complex and winding, and are very difficult to traverse even with the map.

Skill Challenge: DC $PartyLevel + 15
Available Skills: Dungeoneering, Nature, Perception

Each skill can be used no more than 3 times. The PCs must succeed at 8 checks before 3 failures. After 8 successes, the players successfully navigate the caves and arrive at the entrance to $DungeonProper. After 3 failures, the PCs have become turned around and spend an hours getting back to the beginning of the caves and must start over. All PCs must make an Endurance check DC $DesignatedDC or lose a healing surge.

Note that the penalty here is, "nothing interesting happens, and the game cannot continue until a ton more dice rolling is done." This isn't hard. It's just tedious. It could have been one die roll to determine success or failure. This is making the PCs jump through hoops and holding the game hostage while you do it. It doesn't add to the game.

Here's a godawful one:

To find out more information about $MacGuffin, the players must search the town for more information.

Skill Challenge: DC $PartyLevel + 15
Available Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Insight, Intimidate, Streetwise

Bluff and Intimidate can only be used twice. Each other skill can be used no more than 3 times. 10 successes before 4 failures. After 10 successes, the players learn the location of the map to $NextDungeonLocation. After 4 failures, the players encounter $CombatNpcs that have been sent out to look for them.

This is terrible. Not only are you turning what should be a role-playing session into just more die rolls, it also means the penalty for failure is "bonus XP!" What happens is the same 3 players will roll the checks until they get enough successes. It doesn't get easier or harder. The NPCs actions don't ever change. Worse, the module presented no options for what they players should do if they can't pass this skill challenge, so even if you fail three times (as we did, since our social characters were absent that session) there's nothing stopping you from just trying it again a fourth time. Good thing, too, because the only way to get the map to $NextDungeonLocation was by completing the Skill Challenge. And yet somehow all the information we gathered the first three times doesn't help at all the fourth time?

Note that these skill challenges are all from adventures from Dungeon magazine that I actually played. They might be a bit different, but not that much.

"Oh, well clearly the authors of those modules didn't understand how to use Skill Challenges."

Yes, but if professional module designers can't even use the rules correctly and professional editors don't catch these designer errors, isn't it kind of a sign that there's a problem with the rule? If module designers can't understand how to use a game mechanic, how can we expect DMs to understand? If players can't understand when to use a rule, what good is the rule?
 

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