• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Why is level 5-10 the "sweet spot" in D&D

Hussar

Legend
During the playtest I remember taking a survey asking about levels of campaigns run, etc. I think the data showed a pretty consistent sweet spot throughout editions (give or take a few levels). I think most gaming groups simply don't have campaigns that last so long so 10th becomes a pretty reliable top level.

/snip.



It's worth mentioning that 10 levels is probably about how many levels you get through in 1 year of semi-regular D&D play if you level about 1/month or so, so there's probably a lot of truth to this reason for change, too. :)

I'll third this one right here. The math just doesn't really favour higher level games. Not the game math, but the "math of juggling real life". Presume 4 sessions/level (ya, the first couple are faster, but, the later ones are slower, so, it balances out). That's about 1 year of weekly play to get to level 10. Most people's lives aren't stable enough to commit to more than one year for campaigns. This has been true going all the way back to the WotC play survey in the 90's. I can't imagine it's changed since then.

Add to that the fact that most groups start at level 1 and you get a de facto sweet spot because that's what most everyone plays. Most of the big ticket character options appear here. Pretty much any supplementary material focuses on these levels as well.

I don't think it's a shock that the WotC AP modules have been either levels 1-15 or, with Curse of Strahd, 1-10. Anything longer than that is very difficult to ever play through for most groups.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

S

Sunseeker

Guest
[MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] pretty much mails it. The early levels are very swingy, one good hit, two moderate hits will take down most characters. There aren't a lot of modifiers so its all very dependent on the dice. The high levels are unpredictable, unexpected combinations of powers, the total number of available abilities, etc... leads to a situation where there are simply too many variables.

I will also add that I feel that higher levels in most editions get very little testing. Making their effects less balanced even less controllable. It's a bell curve. At low levels you have too little, at high levels you have too much.
 

Celebrim

Legend
In my opinion, the sweet spot tends to be a bit wider than 5-10, and possibly as wide as 3-12.

All editions except 4th tend to have the problem of low hit points make PC death too much a matter of random bad luck.

All editions before 4th tend to have the problem that at high levels, increasing prevalence of save or die tends to bring the random bad luck back.

Additionally, all editions before 3rd tended to have the problem that low level wizards weren't very fun to play because they had too limited of spellcasting options.

Additionally, all editions before 4e tended to have the problem that 5th level spells were such powerful game changers, that the party that lacked access to them was playing a different game than the one that did.

A related issue to this is that all editions before 4e tended to have the problem of non-caster classes with linearly increasing power and, and spellcasters with exponentially increasing power. This was most pronounced in 3e, where many of the historical restrictions on casters got tossed and high levels weren't play tested well, dramatically reducing the sweet spot in this edition.

Additionally, all editions tended to have the problem that combat at high levels became fiddly for one reason or the other. Either the problem was the players extended strategies from low levels to gain increasing numbers of henchmen and retainers, resulting in very large combats. Or players hit on the strategy of summoning large numbers of allies. Or spell-casters realized that they could very powerfully influence combat by using buffs and debuffs. Or all of this at once, which could just slow resolution to a crawl.

There are also a number of edition specific problems.

In 1e-2e, one problem was a lack of published content suitable for characters over 10th level. Particularly post UA, in 1e a 15th level party with good equipment could reasonably take on just about any published unique foe in a stand up fight. The options for challenging parties just diminished, and the few published examples usually relied on breaking the rules in some fashion to nerf high level PCs - making spells not work or be impossible to recover, making magic items cease to function, and so forth. That successfully created challenged, but only in a method that seems like 'cheating' and is frustrating for players.

Third edition spellcasting simply breaks the game. Period. Too many restrictions were removed. Too many options for avoiding problems were provided at too low of a cost. And too many spells are simply unbalanced. Depending on how quickly the player gets system mastery, this can just break the game even by a fairly low level. But even players without a lot of system mastery can break the game by 9th level. 3.5 edition, despite a few obvious needed nerfs, actually ended up just making the problem much much worse, by breaking numerous formerly reasonable spells for no obvious reason and clearly without there being much in the way of playtesting to prove the concepts.

4e has the problem that despite attempting to make 30th level play exactly the same as 1st level, the math at high levels wasn't well tested resulting in long, tedious combats, where players were often running out of encounter powers and reduced to 1e style slap fests (but without 1e style speed and short combats). Also the end results were often quite obvious long before the combat was over, resulting in pointless grinding.

4e and 5e in my opinion both suffer from too much number inflation. There has been a consistent trend from 1e to the present that each edition increases the hit point pools and damage per round, particularly at high levels. All this number inflation results in increasing math tedium and die rolling.

All editions run into problems of the scope and scale of the adventure becoming too large to be easily relatable or too big to easily cover. For example, as players become true powers in the world, the scope of their influence and possession can extend out to whole nations. It becomes very hard to then easily track what they 'own' and what resources they can draw on, and if the PC's are allowed to draw on them, you can run into situations where mass combat rules (or taxation and economic investment rules!) are the most important part(s) of the campaign. The game can quickly become Accountants & Spreadsheets. Plus, the foes of the players more and more become superhuman beings with superhuman intelligence, senses, and knowledge - and this can be a challenge for DMs to properly run, as by definition such creatures are beyond human understanding.
 

In my opinion, the sweet spot tends to be a bit wider than 5-10, and possibly as wide as 3-12.

All editions except 4th tend to have the problem of low hit points make PC death too much a matter of random bad luck.

All editions before 4th tend to have the problem that at high levels, increasing prevalence of save or die tends to bring the random bad luck back.

Additionally, all editions before 3rd tended to have the problem that low level wizards weren't very fun to play because they had too limited of spellcasting options.

Additionally, all editions before 4e tended to have the problem that 5th level spells were such powerful game changers, that the party that lacked access to them was playing a different game than the one that did.

A related issue to this is that all editions before 4e tended to have the problem of non-caster classes with linearly increasing power and, and spellcasters with exponentially increasing power. This was most pronounced in 3e, where many of the historical restrictions on casters got tossed and high levels weren't play tested well, dramatically reducing the sweet spot in this edition.

Additionally, all editions tended to have the problem that combat at high levels became fiddly for one reason or the other. Either the problem was the players extended strategies from low levels to gain increasing numbers of henchmen and retainers, resulting in very large combats. Or players hit on the strategy of summoning large numbers of allies. Or spell-casters realized that they could very powerfully influence combat by using buffs and debuffs. Or all of this at once, which could just slow resolution to a crawl.

There are also a number of edition specific problems.

In 1e-2e, one problem was a lack of published content suitable for characters over 10th level. Particularly post UA, in 1e a 15th level party with good equipment could reasonably take on just about any published unique foe in a stand up fight. The options for challenging parties just diminished, and the few published examples usually relied on breaking the rules in some fashion to nerf high level PCs - making spells not work or be impossible to recover, making magic items cease to function, and so forth. That successfully created challenged, but only in a method that seems like 'cheating' and is frustrating for players.

Third edition spellcasting simply breaks the game. Period. Too many restrictions were removed. Too many options for avoiding problems were provided at too low of a cost. And too many spells are simply unbalanced. Depending on how quickly the player gets system mastery, this can just break the game even by a fairly low level. But even players without a lot of system mastery can break the game by 9th level. 3.5 edition, despite a few obvious needed nerfs, actually ended up just making the problem much much worse, by breaking numerous formerly reasonable spells for no obvious reason and clearly without there being much in the way of playtesting to prove the concepts.

4e has the problem that despite attempting to make 30th level play exactly the same as 1st level, the math at high levels wasn't well tested resulting in long, tedious combats, where players were often running out of encounter powers and reduced to 1e style slap fests (but without 1e style speed and short combats). Also the end results were often quite obvious long before the combat was over, resulting in pointless grinding.

4e and 5e in my opinion both suffer from too much number inflation. There has been a consistent trend from 1e to the present that each edition increases the hit point pools and damage per round, particularly at high levels. All this number inflation results in increasing math tedium and die rolling.

All editions run into problems of the scope and scale of the adventure becoming too large to be easily relatable or too big to easily cover. For example, as players become true powers in the world, the scope of their influence and possession can extend out to whole nations. It becomes very hard to then easily track what they 'own' and what resources they can draw on, and if the PC's are allowed to draw on them, you can run into situations where mass combat rules (or taxation and economic investment rules!) are the most important part(s) of the campaign. The game can quickly become Accountants & Spreadsheets. Plus, the foes of the players more and more become superhuman beings with superhuman intelligence, senses, and knowledge - and this can be a challenge for DMs to properly run, as by definition such creatures are beyond human understanding.

Your assessment of 4E is accurate, but for the wrong reasons. 4E's issues multiplied at higher levels, and there were two main factors:

1. The higher level you go in 4E, the greater the impact of system mastery. Unoptimized PCs in 4E would defeat enemies more slowly and hence grind. The power of optimization in 4E multiplied as you level up, so optimized PCs were more powerful for their level then they were at lower levels. For an optimized party, the higher in level they got the harder they were to challenge. Optimized 4E epic tier PCs were almost impossible to merely hassle much less endanger, without upping the challenge to the point where the game slowed to a crawl. This really started showing well before epic, in low paragon around level 13.

2. The math of the original game was changed. In the original game, monsters had higher defenses and attack rolls than the PCs did. This made the challenge a bit more fair, but tended to result in grind and a lot of players were bothered by the number disparity in paper. The game math changed with expertise and the other math fix feats, while they increased monster damage. This sped the game up but really took the challenge out of high level play. 4E's original math led to grind but got the challenge more or less ok. The updated math didn't add up.

For optimized play, which was what I played, I'd call the sweet spot of 4E to be 2-13(level 2 was the biggest power jump of any single level in the game). 14+ is less broken than outside the sweet spot in other editions, but things got messier to a noticeable degree.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Your assessment of 4E is accurate, but for the wrong reasons...

Since I have never played 4e, and only have a casual acquaintance with the rules, I'm not surprised I'm wrong in the details.

For optimized play, which was what I played, I'd call the sweet spot of 4E to be 2-13(level 2 was the biggest power jump of any single level in the game). 14+ is less broken than outside the sweet spot in other editions, but things got messier to a noticeable degree.

Interesting. So despite all the changes, they didn't manage to get a sweet spot larger than the 3-13th span I'd consider the sort of span a good DM could make into a sweet spot if they were proactive in managing the game.
 

Since I have never played 4e, and only have a casual acquaintance with the rules, I'm not surprised I'm wrong in the details.



Interesting. So despite all the changes, they didn't manage to get a sweet spot larger than the 3-13th span I'd consider the sort of span a good DM could make into a sweet spot if they were proactive in managing the game.

The range was about the same, but I'd say the game worked better outside(above) that range than previous editions.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
IF the sweet spot is now 3-12, I think that is a significant improvement over 5-10 - that's 9 levels instead of 5

To everyone who plays 5e: Is this true? I have no idea.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
While the actual "sweet spot" range varies from edition to edition, I'd say it is because it's the range of levels where the group feels powerful but not excessively powerful.

On the one hand, you don't have to suffer the indignities of risking TPK to a group of flumphs. On the other hand you don't feel like the Justice League, saving the world every other day. The party is competent without being overwhelmingly over-competent. The DM can challenge the party without having to bend over backwards creating justifications for why spells X and Y don't simply resolve the next adventure in a single round.

It's an ideal power level for most groups, both from the perspective of the players and the DM. The players feel that their characters are capable and the DM feels that he can challenge the party. That, to me, is the sweet spot.

From what I've seen, 5e has a pretty wide range. Admittedly, I haven't had to deal with high level PC casters, but given the high level non-caster party I DM'd for I'd say the sweet spot can potentially be as wide as levels 3-16. That party being a Battlemaster Fighter, Shadow Monk, NPC Rogue, and a warrior-type henchman. Admittedly, casters might narrow that range.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
To everyone who plays 5e: Is this true? I have no idea.
My information thus far is that the "sweet spot" of 5th edition is actually much larger than it has been since 2nd edition. Of course, that's entirely anecdotal and likely reliant on my style as a DM and my players' preferences for how to play the game since my "this is how playing the game ends up being" frequently doesn't match to what is considered the "norm" (i.e. I found there to be no factor preventing enjoyable game play at any level in 2nd edition except the immense amount of time required to actually get to higher levels, found 3.X to be an endurance test of how long I could hold the system together as DM while it was actively trying to collapse in upon itself, and found 4th edition to become unenjoyable at about 7th level despite that it remained mechanically viable beyond that point).
 

Shiroiken

Legend
IF the sweet spot is now 3-12, I think that is a significant improvement over 5-10 - that's 9 levels instead of 5

To everyone who plays 5e: Is this true? I have no idea.
Yes. Levels 1-2 aren't very good, both because of character frailty and limited options (not everyone has their theme/sub-class). Once you hit level 3, you FEEL like your character is a hero and can handle doing heroic things. I've only played/run to level 10 (after 17 months), but as the PCs get more powerful, so do the challenges. Concentration and Attunement do a fantastic job of keeping magic from dominating and breaking the game, while Rituals allow for magical solutions with limited resource loss. My current campaign is set to go to about level 17, and while I expect a few difficulties (because there always are), I'm not afraid of my campaign falling apart.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top