• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

No. A game - like D&D - that depends on a DM should try to teach that DM to be a good one. One poor or overworked DM might be that DM's problem. But the system itself can do things to encourage the DM to be a good one (and oD&D and BECMI did - and 4e both tried and did although the presentation mangled it).

One DM is a problem of the DM. Many DMs are frequently the result of a bad system.

Define "good DM"... Because what I saw 4e do was present how to run D&D in a certain style with it's particular edition specific assumptions very well, but not necessarily give good generic advice for DM'ing. I honestly think a book teaching someone to be a good DM/GM is a really tall order (maybe even impossible except at the highest of levels), especially when trying to stay playstyle and assumption neutral. Unless by "good DM" you mean "DM running in a style and with the assumptions I prefer"...
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Define "good DM"... Because what I saw 4e do was present how to run D&D in a certain style with it's particular edition specific assumptions very well, but not necessarily give good generic advice for DM'ing. I honestly think a book teaching someone to be a good DM/GM is a really tall order (maybe even impossible except at the highest of levels), especially when trying to stay playstyle and assumption neutral. Unless by "good DM" you mean "DM running in a style and with the assumptions I prefer"...

What makes a good DM is specific from game to game. It's entirely different sets of skills and approaches that make for a good 4e GM, a good BECMI GM, and a good Paranoia GM for example. The responsibility of the game designers and writers is to make good GMs for that game (and hopefully point to crossover skills).
 

The difficulty in optimising a 3.5 Fighter was more to do with the bad position they started out in and the need to have access to many splatbooks to crib feats from. In terms of play, deciding upon your exact value of Power Attack was one of the most complex operations to perform.
3.5 opened up more tactical options than power attacks, but, yes a large part of the complexity of the fighter was in planning the build. In 3.5, it was better to start a new player who wanted a 'simple' character with a Barbarian, for instance.
It also seemed that the martial powers in 4e tended to be more straightforward than many of the magical powers.
Complexity was more tightly correlated with Role than with Source. All classes got about the same number of powers, so faced comparable numbers of choices, even if they were very different choices that worked differently with their class features. But, the Striker role was inherently simpler, Leader & Controller more complex. And, Controller role-support was mostly in their powers (while classes of other roles tended to have their role-support in the form of class features), making controller powers more complex/powerful. The quintessential arcane spellcaster, the Wizard, was controller, the poster boy for martial has always been the Fighter, and was 'merely' a Defender in 4e. Compare fighter powers to wizard powers, and, yes, the latter will be more complex.

It allows you to play a completely nonmagical martial character capable of holding their own in combat.
So does the Champion. Like the Champion, the Battlemaster isn't just capable of holding it's own, it's a high-DPR character, the equivalent of a Striker in 4e. The Warlord was not a striker.
Its abilities allow granting allies bonuses to attack a target, allowing allies to take additional out-of-turn moves or attacks, moving opponents around, and bolstering an allies' health through inspirational speech. That is a lot of the Warlord's "schtick" there.
You're talking about 4 maneuvers vs 334. So, no, it's a varied selection, but it's not a lot of the Warlord's schtick. If the wizard only ever got 4 spells: Sleep, Burning Hands, Shield, and Unseen Servant, it'd be a fair cross section of things the wizard could traditionally, do - offensive, control, utility and defensive spells - but it wouldn't be "a lot," just a sampling.

If the DM wants to see player choices mattering, then I would argue they should do absolutely everything in their power to avoid interfering with the causal chain between player choice and consequences, between player information-gathering and the actual information of the world, and between the lessons they have rightfully learned and the structure of the resolution system.
There is no 'actual' causal chain or world, the DM is providing all that, already. Providing it in a way that lets you riff off the player and come closer to meeting their expectations

My point is that it doesn't need to be--and that it has sounded like people are arguing that the DM should be free to meddle in the consequences of every choice the players make, but simply choose not to do so, except when they do.
I'd say it's a matter of making rulings in favor of fun. That could very well mean that the players' choices really matter - a player who chooses to betray an NPC ally will get different results than one who chooses to support that ally, for instance - it could mean other choices - left or right, spiked chain or bohemian ear-spoon, etc - don't matter so much.

Emphasis mine. I am interested in the term "house rule."
It's taken me years to get used to using it instead of 'variants.' ;)
I typically see it used as a term for DM's rule that players must accept or leave.
I guess I'd define it like I would variant: a formal, probably written, rule change that the DM uses in his campaign, typically from the beginning, or, if introduced later, with the players at least informed (if not also consenting or majority-consenting or something).
 

What makes a good DM is specific from game to game. It's entirely different sets of skills and approaches that make for a good 4e GM, a good BECMI GM, and a good Paranoia GM for example. The responsibility of the game designers and writers is to make good GMs for that game (and hopefully point to crossover skills).

Again how do you determine this, especially with a game as widely played as D&D? I'm just not seeing this as practical or desirable in such a game (except again at the highest levels... though I could be convinced otherwise). I know what my group desires and enjoys when it comes to D&D and how to use 5e to give us that experience... but that doesn't mean another 5e group is going to enjoy the game being run in the same manner. I also highly doubt all groups playing 5e and finding it enjoyable are using some type of universal formula and running their games the exact same way... so whose way of running it is "official" or "good" and whose running it "incorrectly"? That's the issue I see when we get to defining what a "good" or "bad" DM is at a granular level for a specific game.
 

Again how do you determine this, especially with a game as widely played as D&D? I'm just not seeing this as practical or desirable in such a game (except again at the highest levels... though I could be convinced otherwise).

By the style that was actually intended by the designers of the game. And if the designers had multiple styles in mind it should cover all the ones they were aiming for.
 


I am reminded of an anecdote from a book I read a little while ago which mixed a little bit of D&D history and personal story (Of Dice and Men, I think?). Anyway, the writer had secured a game that was being DM'd by Gygax's son (Ernest) at a convention, and was very excited to play in it. But the game itself was, well, eh..... because it was run as a very standard-style, giant dungeon crawl, with almost no time spent playing, and all the time spent prepping, and it just wasn't much fun.

This doesn't mean that Ernest was a "bad" DM, or that the writer was a bad player; just that the DM's style wasn't conducive to the type of game he wanted to play.

That is indeed from Dice and Men! Great read! I recommend anyone who has not read it yet give it a shot.
 

By the style that was actually intended by the designers of the game. And if the designers had multiple styles in mind it should cover all the ones they were aiming for.

See I find it pretty much inconsequential to me and my group, once the tire hits the pavement so to speak, what style the designer, other tables or anyone else thinks the game should be run in... At the end of the day and from a purely practical perspective... I only care if my group is having fun with a game. Give me the tools and tell me to make the game my own (which 5e does) is the limit of what I want defined as "good" or "bad" DM'ing for something with as big a player/DM base as D&D has.
 

What makes a good DM is specific from game to game. It's entirely different sets of skills and approaches that make for a good 4e GM, a good BECMI GM, and a good Paranoia GM for example.
While there's system familiarity to consider, I generally find that GMing skills are pretty darn portable.
Heck, I've run successful games without knowing the rules.
The responsibility of the game designers and writers is to make good GMs for that game (and hopefully point to crossover skills).
I think that's way too much to ask. More plausible is simply to create a game that's relatively easy/intuitive to run.

D&D, though. It's an old game, by definition, as the first RPG, it is the oldest RPG, and it's always been the most popular (occasional hiccups in some sales stats notwithstanding). If any game can get away with just assuming that there are plenty of GMs already out there with the chops to run it well, it's D&D.
 

See I find it pretty much inconsequential to me and my group, once the tire hits the pavement so to speak, what style the designer, other tables or anyone else thinks the game should be run in...
Everyone knows an RPG ruleset depreciates in value by half the second its driven off the lot...
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top