D&D 5E Battlemaster Maneuvers - only 3-4 good ones?

[Ancalagon]

Hello

(I'm *sure* that there is probably a thread on this from when 5e first came out but... when I do a search for battle master or maneuvers I get gazillions of hits so... here's a new one )

I've seen several people post in passing that only 3-4 battlemaster maneuvers are actually any good. I'm not sure everyone agrees, but it seems to be a common opinion. But no one mentions what those maneuvers *are*. So I want to know which ones they are. But what I also wonder if some of those "bad" maneuvers couldn't be easily fixed.

Commander's strike:
I like the principle of this, but the problem is the action economy angle. So you are giving up one of our attacks *and* your bonus action (which you could have used for something else) to let someone use a reaction - which they might have been to use for an opportunity attack, or shield spell or whatever. If the action economy could be improved the maneuver would be better.

Disarming strike:
The real issue here is that the disarmed weapon is dropped at the opponent's feat... which they are then free to pick up on their turn with no penalty whatsoever, almost as if the disarming never happened! Boo. It is marginally useful if you do it then withdraw (your foe doesn't have his/her weapon to hit you with as a reaction) but appart from that... The maneuver would be *greatly* improved if the weapon was tossed 10 feet away... but it might be too powerful then?

Distracting strike:
This one is basically adding the "help" action to your attack (and a bit of damage). Seems good to me

Evasive footwork:
The use scenario of this is a bit narrow - increase your AC when moving - ie vs attacks of opportunities. When you need it it's great, but it won't be in every fight. Still not bad.

Feinting attack:
You give yourself advantage. This is similar to distracting strike, but you need a bonus action to make it work, making it strictly worse than distracting strike unless you have non allies.

Goading attack.
This is nice, because it is making yourself a bit "sticky" - it's a bit like a "taunt" effect.

Lunging attack:
You give yourself a bit more reach. Is this good? Seems a bit narrow in use... I can't tell.

Maneuvering attack:
The use case scenario is narrow, but in some specific situation this is *hugely* useful - cut off an escape route for example.

Menacing attack:
Making a creature frightened for a turn is a pretty good effect. This seems good

Parry:
I don't know what to think about this. It's dex dependent (so are battemasters dex fighters?). At first I was thinking "sweet, it's like casting shield!"... but then I realized I read it wrong - it's not AC, it's damage reduction. And it's only one attack. So now I don't know what to think of it.

Precision attack:
Could be pretty good, but the attack has to be one that counts - maybe combo this maneuver with another one so that one lands for sure?

Pushing attack:
Interesting. Does the creature trigger attacks of opportunity when it's pushed away? If so this maneuver is *awesome*. If not it's still good IMO

Rally: Could be a nice way to save someone's bacon by giving them a bit of extra HP in a tight spot... is this good? If not, why not?

Riposte: Seems good to me!

Sweeping attack:
Meh... maybe for dealing with mobs?

Trip Attack:
This is a free shove added to an attack. I think this is good because then the foe is prone and thus you and others now have advantage to hit it. Depending on the timing of the creature's action, this is better than feint or distracting attack. It also allows a dex fighter to be good at shoving.

So... is my analysis correct? Did I miss something?

 

[Tony Vargas]

'Good' is relative.

All the BM maneuvers are presumably good enough for a 3rd level character who is already solidly tanky and can dish out DPR pretty well (and will only get better at it as he levels via Extra Attack), when you acquire 3 of them - presumably the 3 you consider 'best' for your character, if not best outright.

Later, as a higher level feature (when your opposite number the EK, for instance, is getting higher level spells), you pick 3 more from the remainder of that same 3rd-level-appropriate list.

Quite aside from which maneuver you use, though, the extra damage from CS dice is always good, in its own right, and contributes to the fighters primary-DPR function.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

The maneuvers are all fairly circumstantial, which means that which ones are or aren't going to be useful is a thing which is going to vary greatly from table to table, and even circumstance to circumstance at the same table.

That said, I think there is a bit lacking from the Commander's Strike maneuver - but I also think that is intentional. It is the maneuver that is most likely to be affected by combining with other game elements in unexpected ways - so starting it off at "I'm not sure it's worth it" means a greater margin of error in combinations (especially with yet to be be published materials) before reaching "it's never not worth it."

 

[Rhenny]

For any of the attacking maneuvers, the additional damage on a hit is also part of the power, so sometimes the effect may be more situational while the extra damage will always be handy.

I think you are correct though that some are probably more universal and easier to use, but it is nice that there are many different ones so that depending on the type of fighter/player, there will be different options.

For players who are not hard-core optimizers, the three your PC begins with may influence the way he/she fights/acts, and will definitely flavor the character. For optimizers, I'm sure there will be only a small sub-set of maneuvers that fit the bill.

 

[Ancalagon]

Thank you for the input.

I had a few specific questions - notably about push and attacks of opportunities, and I'm having a hard time figuring if parry or rally are good.

 

[Rhenny]

Thank you for the input.

I had a few specific questions - notably about push and attacks of opportunities, and I'm having a hard time figuring if parry or rally are good.

Both of those are of the defensive variety, and they lose the benefit of doing additional damage in addition to an effect. If you ask a hard core optimizer, they'd probably say that those two are pretty weak.

That said, having a parry in your back pocket (which you can use as a reaction) will help you once in a while to absorb a little damage especially if you have dex build.

Rally likewise would be best for a fighter with a lot of charisma, but still probably weaker overall than many of the attack options.

As someone who optimizes less, I like the flavor that these give to a character, and if the group doesn't have a healer, Rally will become more valuable indeed.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Thank you for the input.

I had a few specific questions - notably about push and attacks of opportunities

A creature doesn't provoke opportunity attacks if you aren't using your movement, action, or reaction in order to be moving - so shoving doesn't result in any opportunity attacks.

and I'm having a hard time figuring if parry or rally are good.

Parry is excellent - the best healing is having never lost hit points to begin with, so if you are in a situation where you don't need to hang on to your reaction for another use, being able to ensure a reduction of the HP you lose (since you don't have to spend the superiority die until you are sure you are taking damage) it is a solid option.

As for rally, it enables the fighter using it to be something other than damage-dealing attack-sponge - so I think it gets a pass on being not particularly potent without what some would consider "non-standard" ability score investment (but hey, what do I know? I'm just the guy playing a champion fighter with 14s in every ability score except for my 11 constitution and having an absolute blast).

 

[Ancalagon]

I totally picture a battlemaster as this thin guy in his early 40s with light armor, a rapier, a buckler and a scraggy mustache, weaving through a fight with impeccable footwork stabbing ogres in the eye.

 

[brehobit]

Commander's strike:
Very useful if you have a rogue as they get to use their reaction on your turn and thus can backstab again. Very very useful in that case. Otherwise occasionally useful (can't close and are a melee fighter for example).

Disarming strike:
Not sure if you can use a free action to pick up their weapon? If so, it's huge against weapon-foes, less useful otherwise.

Distracting strike:
Quite good, I agree.

Evasive footwork:
I'd call this not worth the space. Rarely useful and not as good as (say) rogue or monk.

Feinting attack:
Ick. Trip is probably better most of the time.

Goading attack.
Agreed. Quite good.

Lunging attack:
Ick.

Maneuvering attack:
Useful if you are using the optional flanking rules. Otherwise too rarely useful.

Menacing attack:
Very very good indeed.

Parry:
For a dex-based fighter (which I play) this is huge, at least from levels 3-7. I can nearly keep up with a barbarian in terms of damage taken with this and second wind.

Precision attack:
Useful with a -5/+10 feat.

Pushing attack:
Other classes have better pushes. It's "eh" most of the time, but can be very nice if you have lots of fights with fun terrain.

Rally:
For a high CHR fighter (why?) this might be okay. But largely under powered IMO even if you do have the CHR. Needs a bit more. Maybe "and they have advantage on saves vs. fear until the start of your next turn" or some such. (Still not enough though)...

Riposte:
Yep, huge.

Sweeping attack:
Waste.

Trip Attack:
It's huge. Especially if you are trying to maximize one-round damage (knock them down? If so, spend your action surge and go to town).

I think I only disagreed with you in a few places. Some of these need some work, but by-and-large most are useful and you have real choices to make at least at 3rd and 7th level.

 

[Ancalagon]

Hmmm... Parry is a bit weak compared to the defensive duelist feat.