D&D 5E Reactions

[Arial Black]

I'm looking forward to if/how JC answers the follow-up tweet and explain either how Uncanny Dodge doesn't work if the original damage knocks you unconscious (making it Uncanny Heal), or that somehow part of the effect happens before Uncanny Dodge and part after, or the admission that he hadn't thought it through.

 

[Ovinomancer]

If you don't have a consistent model for why rulings go a given way, you can't make consistent rulings in future cases, of which there are always plenty.

I'm looking forward to if/how JC answers the follow-up tweet and explain either how Uncanny Dodge doesn't work if the original damage knocks you unconscious (making it Uncanny Heal), or that somehow part of the effect happens before Uncanny Dodge and part after, or the admission that he hadn't thought it through.

You might have a point if you were talking about an ability that caused unconsciousness on a hit, rather than unconsciousness as a result of the damage. In the latter case, the unconsciousness is an effect of the damage taken reducing your hitpoints to or below 0. That only occurs after the final damage is determined and allocated. Uncanny dodge intercepts the damage allocation portion and modifies the total damage prior to allocation. You don't allocation the full damage and then add back hp to make up half of it. Uncanny dodge halves the damage prior to allocation, and so the conjectured situation isn't at all analogous to shocking grasp.

With shocking grasp, the prevention of reactions is a function of the hit being successful, not the damage being applied. Since uncanny dodge requires a hit as it's trigger it can't be used against shocking grasp because the very hit it would react to has the effect of preventing reactions. Put simply, if I hit you with shocking grasp, you lose your reaction immediately. If I hit you with a non-shocking grasp attack, though, you don't lose your reaction, and so can then use uncanny dodge against the hit before damage is determined to halve the damage before it's applied. After the damage is applied, you check to see if you're unconscious from the damage. The full damage rolled for the attack is never applied, so it doesn't matter for this check -- only the halved damage is ever applied.

For the same reason, I wouldn't allow shield to be used as a reaction, either, mostly because it has paradoxical results if the shield doesn't prevent the shocking grasp from hitting -- at that point, you've reacted to something that forbids your reaction.

And, of course, this is a ruling, not a rule, so please feel free to rule in however you wish wherever you play - I'm making an argument for my interpretation and not an argument for how you must interpret it.

 

[Bad Fox]

If you don't have a consistent model for why rulings go a given way, you can't make consistent rulings in future cases, of which there are always plenty.

Fortunately, Jeremy Crawford seems to have answered your follow-up tweet:

"Uncanny Dodge reduces damage before you apply the effects of the damage."

Makes good sense.

 

[Oofta]

Fortunately, Jeremy Crawford seems to have answered your follow-up tweet:

"Uncanny Dodge reduces damage before you apply the effects of the damage."

Makes good sense.

Yep.

Uncanny dodge does nothing to negate the hit, therefore it does not negate the additional effects of a hit. The damage of the shocking grasp is only part of the attack, therefore you can't react.

As the attack hits you are twisting away from the weapon so that it causes less damage. It does not say that you do not take full damage and then magically heal. Unfortunately since you are being tazed, you can't twist away.

Shield is different (and perhaps would be clearer if it were slightly reworded). It negates the hit. If your shield stops the hit in the first place, all effects of the attack are negated.

Seems pretty simple. No magic healing after the damage is applied required.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Yep.

Uncanny dodge does nothing to negate the hit, therefore it does not negate the additional effects of a hit. The damage of the shocking grasp is only part of the attack, therefore you can't react.

As the attack hits you are twisting away from the weapon so that it causes less damage. It does not say that you do not take full damage and then magically heal. Unfortunately since you are being tazed, you can't twist away.

Shield is different (and perhaps would be clearer if it were slightly reworded). It negates the hit. If your shield stops the hit in the first place, all effects of the attack are negated.

Seems pretty simple. No magic healing after the damage is applied required.

As I said above, I disagree that shield is different, mostly on the strength of the paradox created if reacting with shield doesn't prevent the hit. If it works, it's fine, makes sense. If it doesn't work, well, then you were hit and prevented from reacting yet you reacted. I think that it should make sense both ways, and not just one, for it to work at all.

 

[seebs]

No paradox, really, any more than there is with any other thing. You can always get shield off right away, when you know that you're about to be hit.

And Crawford's response gives us more insight into order of effects. So...

1. Hit.
2. Effects from hit.
3. Damage from hit.
4. Effects from damage.

Shield allows you to react at step 1.5. Uncanny dodge allows you to react at step 3.5. And both wildshape reversion and disintegrate happen in step 4, with no clear ordering other than intent.

 

[Bad Fox]

And Crawford's response gives us more insight into order of effects. So...

1. Hit.
2. Effects from hit.
3. Damage from hit.
4. Effects from damage.

I'd even be inclined to see it a little more simply...

1. Initial hit calculation.
2. Calculate damage and apply effects.
3. Apply damage and effects-on-damage.

 

[Ovinomancer]

No paradox, really, any more than there is with any other thing. You can always get shield off right away, when you know that you're about to be hit.

And Crawford's response gives us more insight into order of effects. So...

1. Hit.
2. Effects from hit.
3. Damage from hit.
4. Effects from damage.

Shield allows you to react at step 1.5. Uncanny dodge allows you to react at step 3.5. And both wildshape reversion and disintegrate happen in step 4, with no clear ordering other than intent.

I think you're reading too much into that. There's no additional order effect required by Crawford's reading, nor is there any support that shield reacts in a different place than uncanny dodge. The effects are different, but both trigger on a hit. Shield has the ability to negate it's own trigger, which is interesting, but doesn't mean it otherwise behaves differently.

 

[steeldragons]

The "logic" attempting to be defended/extrapolated here seems akin to:
Apples are fruit.
This apple is red.
Ergo all fruit must be red.

 

[jrowland]

oooo...controversy!

No ones mentioned it, so I will:

If the point of the Shocking grasp rider is to prevent the target from using reactions until their next turn, isn't triggering the reaction "uncanny dodge" accomplishing the same thing? By virtue of using their reaction, they are prevented from using reactions until their next turn any way, no matter how you rule it.

Really its an argument about 1/2 or full shocking grasp damage. Not exactly epic numbers worthy of discussion...but maybe that's just me.

Overall, I am inclined to allow Shocking Grasp to prevent Uncanny Dodge simply because it makes the spell more interesting. RAF > RAW/RAI at my table.