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D&D 5E Geniuses with 5 Int

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
How is anybody at a disadvantage here? Because Bob's ZoT spell did not work on Eloelle? By either event stream he fails to get the answer, so if Eloelle were playing 5 Int more traditionally the outcome would have been the same. What does Bob have to complain about?

This is what you are failing to get. Your narrative is impossible due to the mechanics. Mechanically she failed the save. Mechanically, she is forced to tell the truth as she knows it, even if that truth is incorrect. The mechanics don't say he fails to get the information he seeks. It says he gets the truth. Her lying via your narrative is her lying, when the mechanics forbid such a thing. Your narrative is cheating.
 

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G

Guest 6801328

Guest
It means that fluff has zero to do with the mechanic. If you hit a creature in the arm with a mace and it is narrated as the arm being cleanly sliced off, there's a disconnect and the game breaks. If you have a medusa that turns a PC to stone and you narrate it as feeling like a tickle, but nothing else happens, there is a disconnect that breaks the game. If you have a zone of truth that a PC fails and you narrate it as a success, there is a disconnect that breaks the game.

The fluff and mechanics are not connected when there needs to be a connection. No connection = disconnect.

Every time you post I think about Fezzik telling Vizzini "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Disconnects of the sort you describe do not break the game. They may break your "immersion", but that's 100.0% subjective, and even voluntary.

And fluff does, by definition (or at least, by commonly understood convention) have zero to do with mechanics. That's the whole idea. It's like the V in an MVC architecture, or CSS on top of HTML: the whole point is that fluff is discardable, replaceable. As long as you don't alter the mechanics, you're good. However crazy, counterintuitive, illogical, or just plain dumb the fluff is, as long as it doesn't alter the mechanics then the game isn't broken. Maybe your enjoyment of the game is broken, but that's not the same thing.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
This is what you are failing to get. Your narrative is impossible due to the mechanics. Mechanically she failed the save. Mechanically, she is forced to tell the truth as she knows it, even if that truth is incorrect. The mechanics don't say he fails to get the information he seeks. It says he gets the truth. Her lying via your narrative is her lying, when the mechanics forbid such a thing. Your narrative is cheating.

Right. So she says, "I do not know the answer" and that is the "truth" because her character, the one written on the character sheet that has ability scores and proficiencies and the like, never solved the riddle in the first place.

The player at the table describes this as, "I solved the riddle AND my patron protected me from the ZoT spell." That part is just fluff, divorced from the mechanics.

There is no combination of events or spells or whatever that can cause Eloelle's character to actually produce the answer to the riddle (unless the DM intervenes) because to do so would be to have the fluff change the mechanics.

I will patiently keep explaining this every way I can, from every direction I can, with any analogy that I can. But this would go a lot faster if you could go quickly take a college level course in symbolic logic and then get back to me. It doesn't have to be an advanced course; introductory material would work just fine. I'll be here waiting.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Every time you post I think about Fezzik telling Vizzini "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Your PC is lying when it is mechanically not possible to lie without a house rule. It's really that simple.

Disconnects of the sort you describe do not break the game. They may break your "immersion", but that's 100.0% subjective, and even voluntary.

One such disconnect is enough to render every iota that is said in the game suspect. You'd no longer be able to trust anything that was described to you.

And fluff does, by definition (or at least, by commonly understood convention) have zero to do with mechanics. That's the whole idea.

That has never been true. Fluff is mutable, but all the changes still have to match the mechanics or the fluff doesn't work. Go ahead and change a fireball to a heat ball with the same effects. That's a good change. The fluff match the mechanics as they are SUPPOSED to.

Go back through every single product put out by TSR or WotC and the fluff will match the mechanics. It's how you make the game playable. If the fluff ever doesn't match the mechanics, it's because some other mechanics is at work altering things. An illusion of a waterball to prevent the victim from seeing the fireball, and so on.

It's like the V in an MVC architecture, or CSS on top of HTML: the whole point is that fluff is discardable, replaceable. As long as you don't alter the mechanics, you're good.

Almost. You forgot to add in that the new fluff must also match the mechanic in order for it to be good.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Right. So she says, "I do not know the answer" and that is the "truth" because her character, the one written on the character sheet that has ability scores and proficiencies and the like, never solved the riddle in the first place.

That is not the truth. It is a baldfaced lie because due to your narrative, she fully believes that she knows the truth. She would have to give that answer. That it isn't a correct answer doesn't mean anything. The truth is what she believes it to be.

The player at the table describes this as, "I solved the riddle AND my patron protected me from the ZoT spell." That part is just fluff, divorced from the mechanics.

No it's not. That part is in direct opposition to the mechanics which prevent that from happening. There was no protection. She failed.

There is no combination of events or spells or whatever that can cause Eloelle's character to actually produce the answer to the riddle (unless the DM intervenes) because to do so would be to have the fluff change the mechanics.

Correct. Since she doesn't have the answer to the riddle, she must by the mechanics produce the answer she believes is correct and tell that to the caster.

I will patiently keep explaining this every way I can, from every direction I can, with any analogy that I can. But this would go a lot faster if you could go quickly take a college level course in symbolic logic and then get back to me. It doesn't have to be an advanced course; introductory material would work just fine. I'll be here waiting.

How about instead you take a crash course in rules. If you want to house rule Zone of Truth to allow you to ignore the effect when your backstory is in opposition to it, then fine. Otherwise she is obligated to tell the truth as she knows it, which means that she produces an answer, incorrect or otherwise, to the riddle.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
He only gives one class a week and his secretary is very efficient. He (the secretary is male) has plenty of time to attend to his other duties, such as finding pens and topping up inkwells. A clever student optimized the whole thing and explained it to him. Remember, telephones and email haven't been invented so there's nothing to tie a secretary to an office desk.



He doesn't see it as deception, if it's he who is doing it. Rogues are masters at self-deception.



No, he doesn't. He uses intuition. He intuitively understands people. That's Wis, not Int.



Not when you own the university.



Not when you own the university. You get awarded honorary doctorates by other universities.



Yes, it is very unlikely. He's the only one who's done it out of millions who haven't. But then, he's a genius. He can achieve things that are a million-to-one against.



Not if you own the university where it's quite frequent for otherwise promising careers to be cut short. People who get deputed to collect half a gallon of fresh dragon blood from the Blue Mountains of The Auramands sometimes never seem to come back. Odd, that.



See above.



I said he was Professor of Logic. I didn't say he taught classes in logic. It's a purely honorary title bestowed ex officio on the owner of the university.



You haven't got it yet. He is the administration.



Actually, yes.



You've never been to a social event for owners of universities, have you? They play different games there.



I think that's a decision the gods might wish to make for themselves.

I loved all these responses (and damn I wish the quotation nested one level deeper) and I think it may reveal another divide between the two camps:

One line of argument seems to be "that is highly improbable/it would never work that way/real such-and-suches don't have that behavior/that's not the definition of that word/etc." Proponents seem to be making an argument that is, "Fictional worlds should adhere to real-world analogues as closely as possible, and only stray when it is absolutely necessary." By this reasoning, Eloelle's existence results in more complexity than is actually needed, so therefore she is...undesirable. In a sense, members of this camp are trying to make the fictional world as "real" as possible.

The other camp is interested in telling a tale, and doesn't care if the details needed to support that tale are improbable. After all, some of the best moments in fiction come about because the events were improbable.

The thread above exemplifies this. Danny is right that in the real world it would be insanely hard for the Professor to get away with the story Bold is describing, to the point that the probability of sustaining the illusion is vanishingly small. But Bold doesn't care...he's showing how you can just throw in more fictional details to counter every criticism.

In another thread Maxperson and I got into it over the question of why Gandalf didn't ask the Lord of the Eagles to just fly to Mt. Doom with Frodo on his back. My explanation is just that it wouldn't have been a very good story, and I don't really need any more reason than that. If you think about it you can come up with plausible reasons, which for me is sufficient to maintain the fiction. But I don't really care which reason is the "real" one, nor do I believe there even is such a thing. The only real reason is that Tolkien wanted to tell a different story.

But Max kept insisting that the Eagles could not have made it to Mt. Doom because Sauron would have zapped them out of the air. In saying that's silly, I was taking the stance of "Well, if Tolkien had wanted to resolve the story that way there are a million plausible ways to get the Eagles there. It's ridiculous to say they couldn't have made it. After all, he found ways for two Hobbits to freakin' walk there, which is even more improbable."

Max responded quite vehemently insisting that the Hobbits-on-foot plan was actually a higher probability plan than the Eagles flying. A stance that I found utterly perplexing.

But, in the context of this debate, I think I finally get it: if the Eagles flying were in fact a better plan, then obviously Elrond and Gandalf would have known that (being Wise and all) and so they would at least have considered asking the Eagles to help. Since they didn't, it must be because it was a bad plan. In other words, for the fiction to remain "connected" to its mechanics and "not broken", you have to believe that Hobbits walking was the best plan.

Fascinating.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
That is not the truth. It is a baldfaced lie because due to your narrative, she fully believes that she knows the truth. She would have to give that answer. That it isn't a correct answer doesn't mean anything. The truth is what she believes it to be.

Ok, I may have picked up on a clue to what you're not understanding here.

Eloelle's player's narrative is not "she's delusional and she thinks she knows the answer". It is, "She is a genius and she did in fact solve the answer, but she's keeping that a secret because her patron told her to do so. She doesn't think she solved it; she actually solved it."

Now, this is pure, unadulterated, high-grade fluff. The sort you have to bring in under the border through tunnels. The truth is that she failed the skill test, and she doesn't know the answer.

To maintain the fiction, Eloelle's player has to keep on making up new fluff, such as "My patron not only protects me from ZoT, but deceives the caster." Again, mechanically this is not true, but it enables the fiction to continue with altering the underlying mechanical state of the game.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Ok, I may have picked up on a clue to what you're not understanding here.

No. I get it completely.

Eloelle's player's narrative is not "she's delusional and she thinks she knows the answer". It is, "She is a genius and she did in fact solve the answer, but she's keeping that a secret because her patron told her to do so. She doesn't think she solved it; she actually solved it."

Now, this is pure, unadulterated, high-grade fluff. The sort you have to bring in under the border through tunnels. The truth is that she failed the skill test, and she doesn't know the answer.

The game doesn't care. If she "knows" the answer, then she must tell that answer to the caster. That is what the mechanics demand. If you avoid giving the answer that she "knows", you are either cheating or house ruling the mechanics away.

To maintain the fiction, Eloelle's player has to keep on making up new fluff, such as "My patron not only protects me from ZoT, but deceives the caster." Again, mechanically this is not true, but it enables the fiction to continue with altering the underlying mechanical state of the game.
The fiction cannot do that unless you house rule the mechanics in a way that allows it. The mechanics demand the truth that she "knows", so she has to give it. You don't get to change that mechanic by introducing more fluff. At least not without a house rule.
 



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