D&D 5E When to turn on Great Weapon Master

[shoak1]

There's an error in the basic premise that gets back to overkill as a limiter. Potential DPR is never realized unless it actually reduces the number of rounds ending combat or killing / defeating a creature.

It doesn't matter if a person does a theoretical ~20 DPR on an ogre via -5/+10 needing a 5 normally vs ~12 without because the fights don't have enough actual attacks going on for the law of large numbers to come into play and theoretical DPR is trumped by real DPR. Real DPR is capped by monster hp and overkill is lost.

IE. If it takes the party 3 rounds to drop 3 ogres the party DPR is 59 regardless of probability. In order for the feat to increase DPR it would need to decrease the number of rounds of combat regardless of an increase weapon damage even if the law of large numbers had an opportunity to take place. If the fighter adds 8 damage (needing around a 5 to hit per above) each round that 24 extra damage isn't enough that it encompasses one Ogre's worth of hit points and the party is likely still going to need 3 rounds to drop 3 Ogres for no real DPR increase.

Theoretical DPR increase from the feat is situational and largely an illusion based on an average that doesn't have a large enough sampling to be realized.

I see where you went here, and it makes sense in a certain way, but its a bit overthought. It would be great to have a magic lens to see how long a fight is going to go and not inflict any overkill damage, saving buffs and GWM hit-impairing uses. But in reality, up until the end of the fight its not really clear whether we can "hold back" on damage to avoid overkill. In the end, the value of dropping creatures 1 round earlier is much higher than any other damage, and that's why we pursue causing damage.

So while it is true that damage could be wasted if a fight ends and the party has swings left, this phenomena is not particular to GWM damage. In a sense, you could therefore discount for instance 10% of total party fight damage as wasted in a typical 5 round fight (half of a round, and assuming 20% of your total fight damage was inflicted that round). But "end of battle wasted damage" and its resulting drop of real dpr vs actual dpr is irrelevant to our discussion here because it affects BOTH sides of the equation/comparison (+2 STR vs GWM, or "take your pick combat feat" vs GWM).

 

[shoak1]

From where are you getting the 15 damage? That's max damage for a Str 16 PC with a greataxe or 2H sword. You'd be better off basing your calculations around average damage - 10 damage. I've re-run the numbers and GWM is balanced against an ordinary attack if you need to roll an 11+ to hit (without GWM) at Str 16, 10+ to hit at Str 20, and 9+ for the Str 24 Barbarian. With Advantage the breakpoint is 13+ at Str 16 and 11+ at Str 24.

Its irrelevant to the equation where you start at, because you adjust the target number by 1 for every 2 points of damage (as it instructs you to do in the original post btw). Had you done so, you would have arrived at the same target # you did

Want to say a PC does 17 damage w/o GWM instead? Great, 0.5(17-15)=1, so his target # is 9. Want to say a PC does 9 avg damage w/o GWM? 0.5(15-9)=3, so his target # is 5......

 

[jgsugden]

I addressed how many hp a creature has so....don't think you read my whole post.

As or your other particular special scenarios, so what? It does not invalidate my analysis to bring up "what if a unicorn attacks you w/stunning fist?". In most situations, the guide will serve a player well.

You addressed one HP situition, but there are far more. If I am likely to deal 2d6 +6 on a hit without using GWM and 2d6 + 16 with it, and my foe has 42 hp... 2 hits with GWM is likely to end the foe (1 round of attack if both hit) while it would take 4 without it most likely (2 rounds). However, if I drop those HPS to 36, we see three attacks without GWM likely being effective to take the enemy down. After figuring out these likelihoods, you have to factor in chance to hit (and crit) into the equation and so much more.

Regardless, min maxing the damage is mostly useless. Talking about average damage, likely hits to kill, or other metrics attempts to organize and plot elements that are too luck dependent, generally, to be controlled. If you actually plot out how often GWM makes a difference in combat relative to just having +2 strength, it is a rare difference in most games.

 

[shoak1]

You addressed one HP situition, but there are far more. If I am likely to deal 2d6 +6 on a hit without using GWM and 2d6 + 16 with it, and my foe has 42 hp... 2 hits with GWM is likely to end the foe (1 round of attack if both hit) while it would take 4 without it most likely (2 rounds). However, if I drop those HPS to 36, we see three attacks without GWM likely being effective to take the enemy down. After figuring out these likelihoods, you have to factor in chance to hit (and crit) into the equation and so much more.

Why is your hero fighting CR 1/4 opponents? This is 5e, not 4e or 3.5 - mobs have a lot more hp.

Yes, when fighting teenie tinies, overkill might be a factor. But then again good thing you picked GWM and can cleave now right?

Regardless, min maxing the damage is mostly useless. Talking about average damage, likely hits to kill, or other metrics attempts to organize and plot elements that are too luck dependent, generally, to be controlled. If you actually plot out how often GWM makes a difference in combat relative to just having +2 strength, it is a rare difference in most games.

This isn't really analysis you are doing here, just an unsubstantiated blanket statement. And for the record, in games that are competitive, your "rare" difference where GWM kills a mob 1 round earlier (which I hotly contest is "rare") is a big deal. In any case, you could say the same about any buff, any action in combat etc, etc. So what? They are all potentially wasted. How often does Bless actually make a difference? Why even play the game or make choices if you think everything is random and too difficult to "predict?"

 

[Corwin]

Yes, when fighting teenie tinies, overkill might be a factor. But then again good thing you picked GWM and can cleave now right?

You don't have to activate the -5/+10 in order to benefit from the cleave feature. So that's cool.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

You don't have to activate the -5/+10 in order to benefit from the cleave feature. So that's cool.

You do have to crit or be the one to actually drop an enemy, and then have another one you can get to, though. So that can be a bummer (and it is for one player of mine who has basically never been able to use that part of the feat - but he's not too bummed out, since he did manage to give a dragon a few lucky wacks while taking the -5 to-hit).

 

[CapnZapp]

Look CapnZapp, I line up w/you 90% on the feat issue, and would love to be proven wrong - but I think you are wrong on this. So please ponder, evaluate, and respond directly to this point and tell me what I am missing:
Except in EXTREME situations, there will always be 5 pips on the d20 that miss BECAUSE GWM is turned on - they might be DIFFERENT pips when you are buffed, but they are still misses directly as a result of turning GWM on. That means that regardless of buffs, you ALWAYS lose 25% of your standard average damage EVERY TIME you utilize this feat - BUFFS OR NO BUFFS. AND - you never gain more than your chance to hit x10 extra damage to begin with. The idea that buff mitigation somehow changes this is therefore, unless I am missing something, a fallacy.

Together, this means that on average, regardless of buffs, GWM gives you a maximum of +4 average damage, and even that is situational - namely when you are facing low ACs - otherwise it can be much lower or even more harmful to average damage.

Everything you say makes sense.

Except if you say it as an argument the feat does not create a divide between those that can take it (greatweapon wielders and archers) and everybody else.

But since you say you line up with me 90%, I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Perhaps a concrete example would help. Perhaps not - since I honestly don't know if we're actually arguing, or if you merely needed me to see what you wrote and agree to it.



Regards
Zapp

 

[shoak1]

Everything you say makes sense.

Except if you say it as an argument the feat does not create a divide between those that can take it (greatweapon wielders and archers) and everybody else.

But since you say you line up with me 90%, I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Perhaps a concrete example would help. Perhaps not - since I honestly don't know if we're actually arguing, or if you merely needed me to see what you wrote and agree to it.



Regards
Zapp

If, as i say, GWM only adds a max of 4 avg.dmg., and even that isn't provided at least half the time (I would calc out that its about even w/an across the board +2 dmg.), how is it, even w/cleave and the small crit advantage GWM OP?

Is there no comparable feat for other weapon users and are those weapon users therefore at a small disadvantage vs GW users and a bigger disadvantage vs bow users? Sure. Is the feat list a hot mess with a put-together-at-the-last-minute feel to it? Sure. Are those facts excusable simply because WoC labelled them optional? No. Bottom line? Sloppy work by WoC.

So for me the feat list as a whole is a problem, just not GWM itself. And the problem is more of the feel, the lack of balance between the feats (some ridiculously weak, others very strong), and the lack of variety of combat options in the list, rather than anything being OP per se (except in the case of SS maybe).

 

[CapnZapp]

Then you might be interested to learn that I am preparing a review of the entire list of feats, precisely to put the spotlight on these issues

 

[shoak1]

Then you might be interested to learn that I am preparing a review of the entire list of feats, precisely to put the spotlight on these issues

This is our house ruled feat list:
[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]FEATS[/TD]
[TD]EFFECTS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Weapon Feats[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Weapon Master[/TD]
[TD]+1 DEX, gain PROF in 4 weapons[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Great Weapon Master[/TD]
[TD]if crit or drop enemy w/melee weap.(not unarmed), get BA melee attack; if use hvy weap.to melee att., may take -5 to att.roll to get +10 dmg.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Polearm Master[/TD]
[TD]glaive, halberd, quarterstaff: BA attack w/other end d4 damage; enemies provoke AoO when they enter your reach[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tavern Brawler[/TD]
[TD]+1 STR or CON, PROF w/ improvised; unarmed=d4 dmg, improv.d6 1H / d8 2H.; if hit w/unarmed/improvised get BA to grapple[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Crossbow Expert[/TD]
[TD]Ignore crossbow loading if PROF, no DIS if enemy adj., if ATT action with 1H weap.(not unarmed), get BA to att. w/loaded hand crossbow[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sharpshooter[/TD]
[TD]ranged weapon attacks: no DIS at L range; +2 to attack rolls vs.cr.w/cover.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Combat Feats[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Defensive Duelist[/TD]
[TD](Prereq DEX 13) If armed w/finesse weap.(not unarmed) and enemy hits you w/melee attack, use reaction to add PROF bonus to AC[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dual Wielder[/TD]
[TD]if 2 weapons wielded (not unarmed): +1 AC, weapons needn’t be light, draw both weap.as if 1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Grappler[/TD]
[TD]+1 STR, ADV on att.vs.creat.you are grapp.+may use action to pin – roll 2^nd grapp, success=you’re both restrained[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mage Slayer[/TD]
[TD]you get AoO vs adj.enemies casting; if damage an enemy casting they get DIS on their concentration check, ADV on saves vs.adj.casters[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Martial Adept [/TD]
[TD]+1 STR or DEX; get 2 maneuvers from Battle Master (Fighter) list and 1 superiority die (d6)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mounted Combat[/TD]
[TD]ADV vs unmounted enemies smaller than mount, PC may take attack instead of mount, mount gets ½/ 0 dmg vs DEX save spells (not full/½)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Savage Attacker[/TD]
[TD]+1 STR or DEX; 1/turn may reroll ALL melee weapon attack (inc/unarmed) damage dice (inc/maneuver dice), must take new result[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sentinal[/TD]
[TD]if hit w/AoO, enemy speed=0 till EOT; may AoO adj.enemies Diseng.; if adj.enemy att.your ally,use react.to melee weap.att.them(inc/unarmed)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tough[/TD]
[TD]add 2hp/level[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Armor Feats[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lightly Armored[/TD]
[TD]+1 CON, gain PROF w/light armor[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Moderately Armored[/TD]
[TD]+1 CON, gain PROF w/med. armor[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Heavily Armored [/TD]
[TD]+1 CON, gain PROF w/hvy armor[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Shield Master[/TD]
[TD]if Attack action OYT, get BA to shove adj.creature; add shield AC bonus to DEX save vs spell/effect and if success take no dmg [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Med. Armor Master[/TD]
[TD]no DIS on STR/DEX checks for light/med.armor, max DEX bonus of 3 (not 2) w/med.armor[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Heavy Armor Master[/TD]
[TD]+1 CON, 3 DR in heavy armor vs pierce/bludgeon/slash weapons (not unarmed), +1 AC in plate armor[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Misc Feats[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alert[/TD]
[TD] +5 bonus on initiative checks, cant be surprised, hidden enemies get no ADV vs you[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Durable[/TD]
[TD]+1 CON, min roll is 2xCON mod when rolling HD to regain hp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Healer[/TD]
[TD]w/healers kit: creatures you stabilize get 1 hp, as an action use kit to heal hp=d6+4+creatures HD (but only 1/ creature between each rest)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Inspiring Leader[/TD]
[TD]+1 CHA; via 10 min.speech, 6 allies within 30’ get temp hp=CPCL+CHA mod.till next rest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lucky[/TD]
[TD]3 luck points/day, use to roll extra die on attack vs.you or your att.roll/ability check/save (exc:nat 1), after roll but before effect, use either roll[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mobile[/TD]
[TD]+10’speed, ignore diff.terrain when Dashing, immune to AoO vs creature you attacked that turn[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Resiliant[/TD]
[TD]STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA: gain +1 to that ability and PROF on saves in that ability[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Magic Feats[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Elemental Adept[/TD]
[TD]choose cold/fire/lightning/thunder: spells you cast of that type ignore RES and treat 1s as 2s on dmg dice[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Magic Initiate[/TD]
[TD]choose any primary casting class; from that class list, gain 2 cantrips for at-will use and a L1 spell to cast 1/day[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ritual Caster[/TD]
[TD]choose any primary casting class; from that class list, gain 2 L1 ritual spells to cast+ may add ritual spells you find on to your list if ≤your CPCL[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Spell Sniper[/TD]
[TD]if cast spell w/attack roll, x2 range; ranged spell attacks ignore≤3/4 cover, learn 1 cantrip from any primary casting class[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]War Caster[/TD]
[TD]ADV on Concentration checks, can do somantic even if hands full, may use AoO to cast if spell cast time of 1 action and targets only that cr[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Skill Feats[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Actor[/TD]
[TD]+1 CHA, ADV on Deception/Performance checks when impersonating, can mimic speech/sounds using Deception skill[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Athlete[/TD]
[TD] +1 STR, 5’move to stand, climb full speed, running jump after 5’move[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dungeon Delver[/TD]
[TD] +1 DEX or WIS, ADV on Perception/Investigation checks to find secret doors, ADV on saves vs traps and RES to their dmg[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Keen Mind[/TD]
[TD]+1 INT or WIS, ADV on saves vs. mma.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Linguist[/TD]
[TD]+1 INT or CHA, PROF in Persuade, learn 3 languages[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Observant[/TD]
[TD]+1 INT or WIS, can read lips, +5 Perception [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Skilled[/TD]
[TD]gain PROF in 3 skills and/or tools[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Skulker[/TD]
[TD]can hide in light obscurement, not revealed if hidden and miss an attack, no DIS in dim light on your Perception checks[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]