D&D 5E Tome of Beasts+ 3pp Books

[Fanaelialae]

This seems relevant to a thread about Tome of Beasts:

If the DM buys a new book of monsters or invents a legendary beast for one adventure and the campaign breaks due to Polymorph, I don't think it is the new monster book/new adventure that is at fault. Polymorph could have been written in a way that is fairly balanced--for instance, by making damage carry over to your normal shape, which is how it worked in AD&D--but it was instead written in a way that is ripe for exploitation.

By all means rewrite polymorph if that's what you feel is best. For me, restricting ToB and 5EF content to "with DM approval only" status is a simple and effective solution.

EDIT: For rewriting polymorph, I would start by restricting the CR allowed based on the level of the spell slot used. With only the MM this isn't really an issue because you get polymorph at level 7 but the beasts in the MM top out at CR 8. If you expand outside the MM, it has absurd potential for scaling (up to CR 20).

 

[Giant2005]

BTW, on the subject of Polymorph, tell me another 4th level spell that can give another PC 230 extra HP (CR 13 Spinosaurus Rex, from Tome of Beasts) and 80ish DPR whenever you cast it. That spell is broken. Broken in a fun way, it's true, and as a DM I wouldn't ban it or change it--but if Chilling Gaze were in the PHB and Polymorph were in the BoLS, you might be criticizing Polymorph as the worse offender, and rightfully so.

That isn't Polymorph being broken, that is a homebrew beast being broken.
Even with that broken beast being included, I still think Chilling Gaze is far more powerful. I am always going to believe that incapacitating all of your enemies without any real chance of them defending against the spell, is better than turning one guy into a god. Chilling Gaze is a literal "I win" spell against anything that isn't immune to Paralysis or Cold - with that spell at the ready, you can go up against any number of anything and still expect to win.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

By all means rewrite polymorph if that's what you feel is best. For me, restricting ToB and 5EF content to "with DM approval only" status is a simple and effective solution.

Don't forget Volo's Guide to Monsters, and every beast the DM makes up for an adventure. Even the MM T-Rex and Giant Ape make Polymorph an extremely good spell, especially when you first get it.

Anyway, the point is that the Book of Lost Spells and the PHB both have some spells that are outliers in terms of strength. I wouldn't toss out the Book of Lost Spells just because of Iron Core any more than I would toss the PHB because of Wall of Force/Polymorph/Simulacrum. Part of being a DM is making adjustments to the rules as needed. In your case that adjustment is "Polymorph can only turn into MM beasts"; in my case that is "there is no Iron Core." But the Book of Lost Spells, as a product, is still fantastic and inspiring.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That isn't Polymorph being broken, that is a homebrew beast being broken.
Even with that broken beast being included, I still think Chilling Gaze is far more powerful. I am always going to believe that incapacitating all of your enemies without any real chance of them defending against the spell, is better than turning one guy into a god. Chilling Gaze is a literal "I win" spell against anything that isn't immune to Paralysis or Cold - with that spell at the ready, you can go up against any number of anything and still expect to win.

I'd be much more sympathetic to your argument if Chilling Gaze actually did that in any scenario that mattered. Sure, it will freeze a horde of zombies at close range, no problem. It's not going to work reliably on a dragon or a troop of shortbow-armed goblins or a troop of drow led by a drow mage or a bunch of fire giants with boulders, though. Countermeasures include Counterspell, Darkness spells, and simply closing your eyes. If Chilling Gaze were as powerful as you seem to think, CR 3 Basilisks would dominate all other monsters because they produce the same effect (permanent paralysis, which is basically death) all of the time, with no concentration requirement or spell slots expended. It's not a "win" button.

Anything which can be beaten by Chilling Gaze can be beaten more reliably by Forcecage. Yes, Forecage is 7th level instead of 6th. That's the price you pay for not having to worry about beating the enemy's Con save.

Edit: okay, virtually anything. Some things are too big to fit in a Forcecage.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Don't forget Volo's Guide to Monsters, and every beast the DM makes up for an adventure. Even the MM T-Rex and Giant Ape make Polymorph an extremely good spell, especially when you first get it.

I don't have Volo's yet, but I have a list of approved material on my campaign wiki, so unless I add it the material within will require special permission to use (I expect to approve at least the PC races for use) just like ToB and 5EF (which are not on the list).

I never said polymorph isn't a great spell. I consider it a must-have based on sheer versatility alone. I just don't think it's brokenly great (unless you start allowing players free access to ToB and the like). In a recent campaign, a druid character of mine prepared polymorph but never ended up using it. A good time to use it simply never came up (my go-to concentration spell was Conjure Animals, which is another great and versatile spell).

Anyway, the point is that the Book of Lost Spells and the PHB both have some spells that are outliers in terms of strength. I wouldn't toss out the Book of Lost Spells just because of Iron Core any more than I would toss the PHB because of Wall of Force/Polymorph/Simulacrum. Part of being a DM is making adjustments to the rules as needed. In your case that adjustment is "Polymorph can only turn into MM beasts"; in my case that is "there is no Iron Core." But the Book of Lost Spells, as a product, is still fantastic and inspiring.

I never said toss BoLS out. I said it had a lot of cool ideas. However, I think that compared to the PHB it has significant balance issues. Using it as a mine for ideas, like you've said you do, is IMO the ideal use for the book.

I mean, sure, against Chilling Gaze you can just avert your gaze and be treated as blinded against the caster. Depending on the DM, the targets might or might not know to do that. After all, this isn't a medusa where basically anyone who's heard the story knows what to do. On top of that, disregarding the length of the duration for the moment, if it were balanced against the PHB spells it would allow a save every round to end the paralysis (Hold Monster), require three failed saves (Flesh to Stone), break when the target is damaged (Hypnotic Pattern), or render the target more-or-less immune to damage (Resilient Sphere). Something like that.

 

[Giant2005]

I'd be much more sympathetic to your argument if Chilling Gaze actually did that in any scenario that mattered. Sure, it will freeze a horde of zombies at close range, no problem. It's not going to work reliably on a dragon or a troop of shortbow-armed goblins or a troop of drow led by a drow mage or a bunch of fire giants with boulders, though. Countermeasures include Counterspell, Darkness spells, and simply closing your eyes. If Chilling Gaze were as powerful as you seem to think, CR 3 Basilisks would dominate all other monsters because they produce the same effect (permanent paralysis, which is basically death) all of the time, with no concentration requirement or spell slots expended. It's not a "win" button.

Anything which can be beaten by Chilling Gaze can be beaten more reliably by Forcecage. Yes, Forecage is 7th level instead of 6th. That's the price you pay for not having to worry about beating the enemy's Con save.

Edit: okay, virtually anything. Some things are too big to fit in a Forcecage.

A Basilisk's Gaze is much less powerful than Chilling Gaze. It has a low DC and requires 2 consecutive failed saves to achieve that same debilitating effect (as opposed to Chilling Gaze's 1). The odds of the Basilisk pulling that off is much, much less.
Forcecage has a much different effect too. It will prevent the enemies from hurting you just fine, but it also prevents you from hurting them. Chilling Gaze has the much more powerful effect of preventing your enemies from hurting you, while also giving you the ability to hurt them with impunity.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A Basilisk's Gaze is much less powerful than Chilling Gaze. It has a low DC and requires 2 consecutive failed saves to achieve that same debilitating effect (as opposed to Chilling Gaze's 1). The odds of the Basilisk pulling that off is much, much less.
Forcecage has a much different effect too. It will prevent the enemies from hurting you just fine, but it also prevents you from hurting them. Chilling Gaze has the much more powerful effect of preventing your enemies from hurting you, while also giving you the ability to hurt them with impunity.

No it doesn't.

Black Dragon vs. Chilling Gaze: Con save at +10 to paralyze it, if it chooses to look at you at close range in the first place*. Meanwhile it is busy cutting you to bits with its greatsword.
Black Dragon vs. Forcecage: automatically captured. Can be killed with arrows or cantrips at your leisure from outside its breath weapon range.

Yes, a basilisk's gaze has a lower DC, and you effectively get to save at advantage (because of the two saves thing). But you're just nit-picking. It's the same effect, and it comes on a CR 3 chassis--of course the DC is going to be lower. The more salient point is that Basilisks aren't all that fearsome, despite the power of their effect, because it's so easy to avoid in other ways, e.g. by closing your eyes and walloping the beast to death with your sword. Chill Touch is just a high-end, quick-acting basilisk gaze which eats your concentration and a 6th level spell slot. Feel free to not add it your campaign if you don't want it, but even if you do add it it's not going to be that powerful in practice.

* Edit: and why would it? It's got blindsight, it doesn't need to look at you to kill you.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I never said toss BoLS out. I said it had a lot of cool ideas. However, I think that compared to the PHB it has significant balance issues. Using it as a mine for ideas, like you've said you do, is IMO the ideal use for the book.

I mean, sure, against Chilling Gaze you can just avert your gaze and be treated as blinded against the caster. Depending on the DM, the targets might or might not know to do that. After all, this isn't a medusa where basically anyone who's heard the story knows what to do. On top of that, disregarding the length of the duration for the moment, if it were balanced against the PHB spells it would allow a save every round to end the paralysis (Hold Monster), require three failed saves (Flesh to Stone), break when the target is damaged (Hypnotic Pattern), or render the target more-or-less immune to damage (Resilient Sphere). Something like that.

Okay, perhaps we are basically on the same page then.

(1) Book of Lost Spells should not automatically available to PCs. Spells should be added to the campaign on a case-by-case basis, whether as scrolls in treasure (chosen by the DM) or by spell research (which requires the DM to make up rules for spell research). They are lost spells for a reason.

(2) Chilling Gaze isn't idiomatic for a 5E spell and should probably be modified before introduction into a campaign.

Do we all agree on these two points?

I'd probably modify Chilling Gaze by letting chilled creatures save every round to break paralysis, but be at disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls after that until you warm up again or get Lesser Restoration/similar cast on you. Also, like Eyebite, once you save successfully against the spell you are immune to that casting of the spell. Even with that nerf it's still probably better than Eyebite, but Eyebite is on the weak side for a 6th level spell.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

That isn't Polymorph being broken, that is a homebrew beast being broken.

It's really the spell. The T-Rex is as overpowered at level 8 as the Spinosaurus is at level 13. Having access to more beast for polymorph extends the window where a single use of Polymorph can dominate an encounter, but it doesn't fundamentally change anything.

It's not like either creature is particularly powerful for it's CR, it's just that there are no high CR beast in th MM.

 

[fixitgeek]

I own many 3PP books; Book of Lost Spells, Fifth Edition Foes, Tome of Beasts, entire Deep Magic series by Kobold PRess, and Race Compilations from Kobold Press plus a few others.

I'm in agreement with the opinion that the Book of Lost Spells should be limited in it's inclusion with just hand selected spells dished out. The book is great for ideas, but some things either don't work for me, my world, or the general balance of current spells.

Tome of Beasts is a must own in my opinion, the book is just awesome at adding new and unusual monsters to any campaign. I also highly recommend anything else form Kobold Press as the work is good.

Fifth Edition Foes before Tome of Beasts this was my go to for monsters that kept my veteran players guessing. They might recognize a monster from 1e or 2e but what does it do to me now? I still like and use it in my campaign but not as often as the last one.

Deep Magic is a good series for player options and new spells to add to the game. I was looking for something extra to spice up the feel of spells in Eberron so I've included Clockwork Magic and Void Magic and am considering possibilities of others of the series.

The races books are all very good, I don't really use them often only when a player wants something different. I've been toying with the idea of a centaur character for a game in the future and the books deliver interesting options.

Hope my thoughts on these help some.