D&D 5E Dispel Magic & Spellcasting Ability Check

[jaelis]

Yes I was just curious about neogod's house rule.

 

[Lanliss]

Ah, ok. I thought you were asking about the RAW difference. In that case, ignore me.

 

[neogod22]

I believe Neo is referring to his/her own games, not RAW, since the question was in reference to what they would allow with JoAT.

No that's wrong. Attacks and Saving throws do use proficiency, but are not ability checks. This is why spells like Hex do not affect them, and why they have their own penalty on the exhaustion table separate from ability checks. Initiative never use proficiency bonuses, so how would you ever get to add JoAT? I don't follow Sage Advice because the people writing because it is not official, and frankly some of their "clarifications" are retarded. Anything not written in a book is not subject to debate as fact of the rules.

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[neogod22]

According to Adventures League, because attacks and Saving Throws are on a separate exhaustion level, they don't count as ability checks.

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[Lanliss]

No that's wrong. Attacks and Saving throws do use proficiency, but are not ability checks. This is why spells like Hex do not affect them, and why they have their own penalty on the exhaustion table separate from ability checks. Initiative never use proficiency bonuses, so how would you ever get to add JoAT? I don't follow Sage Advice because the people writing because it is not official, and frankly some of their "clarifications" are retarded. Anything not written in a book is not subject to debate as fact of the rules.

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a quote from Initiative, page 189 PHB (emphasis mine)

"Initiative determines the order of turns in combat. When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order."

Jack of All trades, emphasis mine again

"you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus"

Nowhere in any of the attack language does it say the words "Ability" or "check", because Attacks and Saving throws are NOT ability checks. Initiative IS an ability check, so Jack of All Trades applies to it.

 

[neogod22]

a quote from Initiative, page 189 PHB (emphasis mine)

"Initiative determines the order of turns in combat. When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order."

Jack of All trades, emphasis mine again

"you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus"

Nowhere in any of the attack language does it say the words "Ability" or "check", because Attacks and Saving throws are NOT ability checks. Initiative IS an ability check, so Jack of All Trades applies to it.

So can you be proficient in initiative?

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[Lanliss]

So can you be proficient in initiative?

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I am not sure, since I have not gone through the whole book to make a list of all proficiency giving things. the least we can know is that you can add half of your proficiency to it. Otherwise Jack of All Trades would state that it can only apply to things which you can get proficiency in, rather than saying "All ability checks".

 

[neogod22]

I am not sure, since I have not gone through the whole book to make a list of all proficiency giving things. the least we can know is that you can add half of your proficiency to it. Otherwise Jack of All Trades would state that it can only apply to things which you can get proficiency in, rather than saying "All ability checks".

The answer is NO. You just read initiative. You can never add your proficiency so you can't add Jack of all Trades. There are things that can be added (or subtracted) to initiative and they are very specific about it in the wording. For example the Alert feat gives a +5 bonus to initiative, and the thief level 17 ability says you can take an extra turn during the first round of combat, that extra turn has an initiative -10 of your regular turn. There are a few other abilities or spells that can affect your initiative count, but it's never proficiency. So if proficiency can't be added, it can't be added period.

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[Lanliss]

The answer is NO. You just read initiative. You can never add your proficiency so you can't add Jack of all Trades. There are things that can be added (or subtracted) to initiative and they are very specific about it in the wording. For example the Alert feat gives a +5 bonus to initiative, and the thief level 17 ability says you can take an extra turn during the first round of combat, that extra turn has an initiative -10 of your regular turn. There are a few other abilities or spells that can affect your initiative count, but it's never proficiency. So if proficiency can't be added, it can't be added period.

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It does not say, anywhere in initiative, that you can never add your proficiency bonus, so I don't know where you got that.* It is an ability check, dexterity specifically. Jack of all trades says ALL ability checks, so by definition that has to include Initiative. It is a basic case of Specific beats General.

*Sorry about the time skip, I got pulled away and had to post only half my post.

 

[neogod22]

It does not say, anywhere in initiative, that you can never add your proficiency bonus, so I don't know where you got that.* It is an ability check, dexterity specifically. Jack of all trades says ALL ability checks, so by definition that has to include Initiative. It is a basic case of Specific beats General.

*Sorry about the time skip, I got pulled away and had to post only half my post.

Ok show me specifically where you can add proficiency to initiative.

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