D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Plaguescarred]

If you already know its location, then by attacking it cannot give away it's location. If it doesn't give away its location when it attacks, then it wasn't hidden.

It might give away a location you thought it was already in, but that doesn't change the fact it was hidden, which is invisible and silent as well.

The Stealth rules don't say a creature cannot hide from people who think they know its location.

 

[kalil]

Until it is observed the Quantum-rogue is both hidden and non-hidden.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

Isn't the box scenario a rather pointless argument?

What does the "hide" action get you when you're in the box?

You're already unseen and your location is known since your opponent saw you entering the box. You can become unheard and I suppose otherwise undetectable, but how does that affect how the situation plays out?

1. The creature in the box is not hidden: the opponent walks over, opens the box and attacks the creature.

2. The creature in the box is hidden (unseen and unheard): the opponent walks over, opens the box and attacks the creature because it's easy to guess their location.

If the area that is being hidden in offers only a single location to do so, then hiding your position while being observed is futile.

So what about secret exits from the box, such as a secret trap door or a teleport? You're still looking a mostly useless hiding roll. Why hide and teleport? The effect is almost always the same either way--your opponent no longer detects you.

The only times I can think it would be helpful would be these:

1. You want your opponent to think you are still in the box, drawn them in to attack it while you teleport behind them and attack them instead. Theoretically, the hiding would allow you to teleport and secretly appear behind them.

2. There is a secret exit out of the box but its operation is noisy enough to warrant a stealth check to use it in secret. Perhaps you want your opponent to think you are still in the box or you just want to confuse the situation until they find the secret exit on their own.

Either way, you are expanding the size of the hiding location from a single position (the box) to something larger wherein your true location can be lost, thereby allowing a stealth check to do so. Its the same as if you had entered a far larger zone of concealment to begin with.

 

[Xetheral]

Isn't the box scenario a rather pointless argument?

What does the "hide" action get you when you're in the box?

I don't think anyone is arguing that hiding in an obvious location like a solitary box is a tatically-sound idea. Rather, it is brought up as a barebones example precisely because it isn't a wise move. Those who define "hidden" such that the hider's location must be both unsensed and unknown appreciate the example because under such a definition the idea of being hidden in the box is absurd. Those who define "hidden" such that the hider's location must only be unsensed appreciate the example because it illustrates a simple situation where one might be unsensed despite one's location being known.

I like the example because it starkly illustrates that the difference between the two camps is primarily definitional (and therefore fundamental and irresolvable).

There is an additional aspect to the hiding-in-box controversy because some (but not all) of those who define hidden as merely "unsensed" would permit a character successfully hidden in the box to make a ranged attack with advantage as they emerge from the box. (The usual basis is that since the character's movements are unsensed the target doesn't know precisely when the attack is coming.)

 

[Uller]

Until it is observed the Quantum-rogue is both hidden and non-hidden.

Funny you should mention that. I play it a little differently than RAW. When someone hides, I don't have them make their stealth check until it is possible for someone to locate them. Sometimes it is immediately. Sometimes it is later.

Example: A character is being pursued by the city watch and ducks into an alley. He hides behind some crates and readies an attack for anyone that comes within reach. I don't have him make a stealth check until the watch enters the alley and can possibly detect him. If he succeeds, the guards don't notice him until they get within reach and he attacks. But if the watch beat him substantially I might have them notice him as they enter the alley. If its close, they might notice him just before he attacks.

 

[Hriston]

It might give away a location you thought it was already in, but that doesn't change the fact it was hidden, which is invisible and silent as well.

That isn't giving away anything. If someone lets you in on a secret, she can't give away the secret later by telling it to you again because it was already given away when it first became known by you. Nor can she make it a secret again if she stops telling you. Maintaining stealth is about keeping your location secret. Unseen and unheard are examples of circumstances which must exist if your location is unknown, but there are others including not leaving a trail to your location.

The Stealth rules don't say a creature cannot hide from people who think they know its location.

It isn't a matter of whether they think they know the creature's location. It's whether they actually have correct information about the creature's location, which can only be determined by the DM, thus the DM must decide if conditions are appropriate.

 

[seebs]

If you don't actually see a thing, you don't know its location, you just have a belief which might be correct.

 

[Hriston]

There's no might about it. The DM knows whether it is correct or not.

 

[Plaguescarred]

If someone lets you in on a secret, she can't give away the secret later by telling it to you again because it was already given away when it first became known by you.

It isn't a matter of whether they think they know the creature's location. It's whether they actually have correct information about the creature's location, which can only be determined by the DM, thus the DM must decide if conditions are appropriate.

But a hider doesn't let you in on a secret unless it actually break Stealth. Until someone hides, its location is revealed to anyone, until the moment it make a Stealth check. When someone successfully make a Stealth check, it is silent and invisible among other things, and one must guess it's location in order to attack it and deducting the latter does not break Stealth, it simply let you successfully attack it. You need to successfully perceive it in order for Stealth to be broken because Stealth is based on perception, not deduction.

You can use secret or other analogies all day but the Stealth rules don't say a creature cannot hide from people who can deduce its location.

 

[KahlessNestor]

But a hider doesn't let you in on a secret unless it actually break Stealth. Until someone hides, its location is revealed to anyone, until the moment it make a Stealth check. When someone successfully make a Stealth check, it is silent and invisible among other things, and one must guess it's location in order to attack it and deducting the latter does not break Stealth, it simply let you successfully attack it. You need to successfully perceive it in order for Stealth to be broken because Stealth is based on perception, not deduction.

You can use secret or other analogies all day but the Stealth rules don't say a creature cannot hide from people who can deduce its location.

Are you saying I'm not allowed to attack the guy I just saw go into the box, just because he's really, really quiet and still?

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