D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Maxperson]

If a halfling is in an empty wrll lit room with a tower shield...

If it was a woodelf and the towershield had a sprig of mistletoe...

It would have to kiss the halfling.

 

[Satyrn]

It would have to kiss the halfling.

The magical compulsion of mistletoe!

 

[Maxperson]

The magical compulsion of mistletoe!

Can charm even an elf!

 

[Hriston]

I disagree an opaque total cover can have a mechanical effect on vision as it completely conceal you. So enough cover can let you hide behind if it's of sufficient size and opacity. For exemple you shouldn't be able to hide behing a transparent wall of force, even if it's 50 x 50 ft but you should behind the same wall made out of bricks.

I disagree that you disagree. You misunderstand, which isn't the same thing and isn't a good reason to get into an argument with someone, although it does seem to happen quite often. But let me ask you, do you think the fact that the brick wall is an obstacle that grants total cover is what obstructs vision to something behind it? If so, why doesn't the transparent wall that also grants total cover similarly obstruct vision? Could it be that the rules for obstacles granting cover and the rules for obstructions blocking vision are kept separate to allow the DM to determine whether some fictional element grants cover or obstructs vision as two independent factors? A transparent wall grants cover but doesn't obstruct vision. A heavy curtain obstructs vision bot doesn't grant cover. The brick wall does both. Despite what it says on page 74 of the PBR, an obstacle doesn't need to obstruct vision to provide total cover. In that context, the word concealed is best understood to mean shielded, and not necessarily from view. Cue the natural language police.

 

[Plaguescarred]

[POST DELETED]

 

[Maxperson]

I disagree that you disagree. You misunderstand, which isn't the same thing and isn't a good reason to get into an argument with someone, although it does seem to happen quite often. But let me ask you, do you think the fact that the brick wall is an obstacle that grants total cover is what obstructs vision to something behind it? If so, why doesn't the transparent wall that also grants total cover similarly obstruct vision? Could it be that the rules for obstacles granting cover and the rules for obstructions blocking vision are kept separate to allow the DM to determine whether some fictional element grants cover or obstructs vision as two independent factors? A transparent wall grants cover but doesn't obstruct vision. A heavy curtain obstructs vision bot doesn't grant cover. The brick wall does both. Despite what it says on page 74 of the PBR, an obstacle doesn't need to obstruct vision to provide total cover. In that context, the word concealed is best understood to mean shielded, and not necessarily from view. Cue the natural language police.

Exceptions don't negate a rule. Page 74 is correct. A curtain being an exception just means that the DM can overrule page 74 in certain circumstances. Also, some DMs might not even overrule page 74 for that curtain. The total cover provided by the curtain means that you cannot directly target the person behind it. For a large curtain preventing the attacker from knowing where exactly the person behind it is, total cover still makes sense.

 

[SkidAce]

Army/Air Force definition

Cover: protects from enemy fire.
Concealment: protects from enemey observation.

Some things provide both.

 

[Hriston]

I'd missed this earlier.

[MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION], in pemerton’s example above, do you consider the human and the halfling to be “in full view” of the “nearby observers” at the time the halfling starts to “be careful” (i.e. takes the hide action)?

Not "of the nearby observers", just "in full view".

If so, can you please explain why the duo are in full view in pemerton’s example but not in my empty room example?

In [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s example the human gets noticed, which suggests they're in full view. I'm pretty sure I explained in my response to your example that whether or not the human is in full view depends (at my table) on the audible distance of the human's quiet noises. If the room is big enough to prevent anyone from hearing quiet noises from the hallway, then the human is in full view and can't hide. This is because any potential observer would have to enter the room to notice the human, at which point the human would have no way of avoiding notice.

 

[Hriston]

I'd prefer to say "unnoticed" - or, perhaps, "potentially unnoticed" - for the following reason.

If the elves were literally unseen that would, in the context of 5e, seem to suggest that they are invisible, and hence - even if detected - entitled to both an offensive and a defensive boost.

So I prefer to think of it this way - if A turns the corner and elf B is just hanging out in the rain/snow, A won't notice B unless (i) B is making significant noise, or moving rapidly/erratically, or otherwise doing something that automatically vitiates an attempt to hide, or (ii) B, despite being still and quiet, nevertheless is noticed by A (mechanically, the WIS check made for A beats the DEX check made for B).

Once A notices B, though, I would say that A is not only aware of B but can see B. Ie B ceases to be unseen. Which is to say, I envisage Mask of the Wild as closer to camouflage than invisibility.

I'm aware you've bowed out of the thread, so please don't feel as if you need to respond to this, but I feel your post warrants a reply.

First, I agree about elves being unseen. I don't think there's any reason to assume that MotW would give a wood elf unseen attacker advantage without requiring it to be hidden.

Second, I think your (i) above is assumed to be true of any creature unless specific effort is made to stay quiet, represented in combat by the Hide action. (I don't think stillness is really a part of this though, which is why I usually require a full 5 feet of obstruction to hide behind, allowing the normal range of movement to be taken while hidden.) For me, "just hanging out" isn't the same as a declaration to stay quiet or try to be stealthy, so if I understand correctly, when A turns the corner, B has a chance to try to hide before being spotted if the player wishes. In my games, a declaration to be stealthy or perform some action that requires a stealthy approach would need to have been made by B's player before A turned the corner to avoid A seeing B.

What I've described doesn't quite capture the flavour of the elves in the Shire whom (if I'm remembering rightly) can be heard singing but not otherwise seen or located. But it's a trade-off to stop Mask of the Wild being too strong.

I don't think it's meant to be very strong. Taken together with FoF (an extra 5 feet of movement), it should be the equivalent of the high elf's extra language and cantrip, neither of which really add much in the way of combat utility. The difference between 1d8 damage from ray of frost and 1d8 damage from a longbow (already available to the elf) is primarily one of flavor.

 

[EvanNave55]

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]
Several times throughout this thread you've asked what the in fiction explanation of the elves hiding in the rain would be or the fluff. While there is no raw/official fluff as there isn't raw/official fluff for any of this I can tell you how I would personally fluff/explain it in My own campaign which would also fit the dex check of stealth-tl though as others have said if you don't think a particular stat fits for how some ability/check is done you should use the stat you consider appropriate. I personally imagine it working quite similar to how will and the other rangers hide in the Ranger's Apprentice series.
Here's how I'd play it:
You see the elf standing across from you start twisting and swaying with the motions of the rain/wind/leaves/nature around them and they seem to blur out of focus (makes stealth check)
On success:
Before you lose track of them entirely.
On fail:
However you manage to keep track of them.

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