D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I've given some real life examples, but that's OK. From the Ranger discussions (among others), I know that you lean towards the more restrictive side of things and I'm fine with that. And I've also said that if they were being stared at, it would be with disadvantage anyway. 90% of the time it's going to occur in those moments that somebody looks away.

Right. The examples involved looking away, rather than being looked at when the hide occurs. That's the difference for me. The rules talk about being able to hide while being looked at. Also, the disadvantage is already present. Any visual perception checks in light obscurement are at disadvantage.

In my direct personal experiences, along with studies, scientific studies, and such I'm quite comfortable with it being mundane.

On the other hand, elves in my campaign are viewed as having some abilities beyond the capabilities of humans (and they do), whether it's due to magic, a by-product of their long lives, or whatever is really left to speculation by me...on purpose. I'm not really concerned about whether it's magical or not as I am about how the world views elves, etc. From a game/mechanical standpoint, all that matters is that they can do it.

So I guess in my campaign, much of the world sees many of their abilities as magical, as the world-builder (or modifier, since it's the FR), I consider it mundane. They're just better.

Fair enough. :)
 

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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Right. The examples involved looking away, rather than being looked at when the hide occurs. That's the difference for me. The rules talk about being able to hide while being looked at. Also, the disadvantage is already present. Any visual perception checks in light obscurement are at disadvantage.

The deer that ran in front of me and into the woods didn't involve me looking away. At least, not looking at something else. My eyes followed where I thought it went, when in reality it had stopped. It was still quite visible through the light brush, but blended in enough it took me a moment to find it again (and I lost track of it when I thought I was following it). Actually, that's happened more than once, but most of the time it's when I'm driving, and my focus is elsewhere, even when I'm trying to follow it (to make sure it doesn't jump back out in front of me).

The guy that walked into a post was obviously not paying attention (although he undoubtedly walked by them at least twice a day - they were a line of safety posts to keep vehicles off the sidewalks at work). So he wasn't staring at them, but they were also in plain sight.

The bear that was not more than 30-40 feet from me in the woods was right there. I have no idea how I didn't notice it, other than obviously I didn't look right at it. But it wasn't concealed in any way whatsoever. There was nothing between us to conceal it.

The guy in a gorilla suit example is also a fun one, only because you're looking right at it, but totally oblivious to it because you're focused on something else. And that's really the point, it's not so much as what you're looking at, it's what you're focused on.

But, once again, these are just examples as to why I feel the way I do. I certainly understand your position, although I think that in a game that exists in your collective heads, erring on the side of possibility is my preferred approach, since we really can't see, describe, or know every single thing that happens.

So if you said you were watching the wood elf carefully, then I'd have no problem saying that most of the time he probably couldn't hide from you. But you'd potentially have other things to worry about as well, since your focus is trained specifically on the elf.

Ultimately, though, and I know we've both agreed on this before, all that really matters is that all of the people at a given table feel comfortable with the approach (even if they'd rule differently if they were the DM). Consistency is also important in this equation. And from what I've seen, I think I'd be very happy playing at your table.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Thank you.

You're welcome.

To follow up, I'd like to suss out the implications of this. Would you say that it impossible to remain hiding in light obscurement? By this I mean that you were hidden before (say in the closed room, just now filled with a lightly obscuring effect) but the situation changes (an observer that didn't detect you before enters the room).

When only lightly obscured, yes in my opinion, unless you're a wood elf, skulker, or level 10 ranger, or the observer is distracted in some way. It has come to my attention in the course of this thread that this is different from 4th Edition, with which I have very little familiarity, especially when it comes to the mechanics.

Same question, but now for less than total cover.

In 5th Edition, cover of whatever degree, provided by an obstacle, only affects such things as targeting, AC, and saves. It has no mechanical effect on vision. An obstruction, however, blocks vision, and whether it is of sufficient size to hide behind is left to be determined by the DM and has no relationship with the degree of cover afforded. Personally, I require an obstruction to be at least 5 feet wide for small and medium characters to hide behind, and at least 10 feet wide to become hidden if they are observed going behind it, to create enough uncertainty about their actual location. I think in most cases this would grant the hider total cover, but I don't consider degree of cover as a circumstance for hiding.
 

Plaguescarred

D&D Playtester for WoTC since 2012
In 5th Edition, cover of whatever degree, provided by an obstacle, only affects such things as targeting, AC, and saves.It has no mechanical effect on vision.
I disagree an opaque total cover can have a mechanical effect on vision as it completely conceal you. So enough cover can let you hide behind if it's of sufficient size and opacity. For exemple you shouldn't be able to hide behing a transparent wall of force, even if it's 50 x 50 ft but you should behind the same wall made out of bricks.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
When only lightly obscured, yes in my opinion, unless you're a wood elf, skulker, or level 10 ranger, or the observer is distracted in some way. It has come to my attention in the course of this thread that this is different from 4th Edition, with which I have very little familiarity, especially when it comes to the mechanics.

In 5th Edition, cover of whatever degree, provided by an obstacle, only affects such things as targeting, AC, and saves. It has no mechanical effect on vision. An obstruction, however, blocks vision, and whether it is of sufficient size to hide behind is left to be determined by the DM and has no relationship with the degree of cover afforded. Personally, I require an obstruction to be at least 5 feet wide for small and medium characters to hide behind, and at least 10 feet wide to become hidden if they are observed going behind it, to create enough uncertainty about their actual location. I think in most cases this would grant the hider total cover, but I don't consider degree of cover as a circumstance for hiding.

And this describes exactly the problem that I have with the rules or how those rules are parsed:

The rules are there to help determine whether somebody can hide in that brush. If I'm an elf in my FR campaign, it doesn't make a difference whether it's 1987, 1996, 2003, 2008, or today, either you can or you can't. For something mundane like hiding (to start with), you figure out what's possible, and then the rules should support that.

Personally, I think the 5th edition rules support hiding very well, although it's clear that our own personal experiences will color what we think is possible or not (from mundane hiding).

When 2.5e came out (really it started with AD&D, and even earlier in Dragon Magazine, although it often had more clarification about the intent of the rules), by spelling out the rules in "better" detail, it sparks arguments about the wording of such rule. The English language is a very imperfect thing (Lawyers make millions because of it).

A hunter often hides in light brush in wait to surprise their quarry, in exactly the same way my lack of observation surprised me when I saw the bear. (Although in that case there really wasn't any obstruction between us. I can only guess that it was hidden behind a tree when I walked by and I didn't look in its direction). It's very possible to hide. There are degrees of how easy it is to hide. For example, could you hide from a blind man if you were in light brush? Not very hard. What about from a deer or bear? I'd say yes, people do it all the time. The same creatures if you're upwind? Maybe not. They might not figure out where you are, but they'll know you are near and leave.

Now from an orc, or human? Human baby? All of these change the likelihood of success in some way or another. So the question becomes first, is it possible at all, under ideal circumstances; such as the target not seeing you enter the brush?.

If the answer is yes, then you start there. You can make the attempt. OK, so you're being chased by somebody through the woods. Their only focus is you, and not tripping or getting hit by branches in the face. In that case I'd say the circumstances make it easier to detect you, so they get advantage. Has it altered your ability to hide? Not really, the circumstances changed in a way that makes it easier for them to know where you are, rather than harder for you to hide.

Now you're running through the woods and there's a light snow on the ground. In that case I'd say the circumstances make it harder for you to hide, so you have disadvantage.

Personally, I also don't have a problem ruling that in many circumstances it's not only harder to hide, but easier to find you. IN which case they would have advantage, and you disadvantage. Is this stacking? The effect of the rolls is in a way, but it's not much difference than a few abilities or feats that give you a -10 penalty to get a bonus to do something.

To put it a different way, in light snow, you run through the brush and around a tree. The target is following you, but there are breaks in their vision as they look at their footing, trees obscure you, etc. So I think the possibility still exists, but it would be very, very hard.

So now what about in combat? I get why the rules state that everybody is looking everywhere, but that's really not entirely true. Sure, you'll be keeping your eye out for danger, but most of your focus is on the most immediate threat. So what does that tell me? No, we don't need more complicated rules about facing and things like that. Instead, it opens up opportunities. Like the rogue can attempt to hide. There may be modifiers. One of those modifiers might be your ally using the Help action to make a Deception check to keep the attention of the target away from the rogue, so they can hide.

Again, 5e supports this approach much cleaner than almost any other edition - Is it possible? If yes, is there advantage/disadvantage. If the modifiers aren't enough to be +/-5 then they aren't really worth considering.

Also, the way I use Perception (or any skill) is much like a take 20. If their Perception gives them the ability (that is they can "roll" high enough, whether passive or not, then they will eventually find you. If you've successfully hidden, then move again, you'll need to make another hide check. If you're hiding behind a wall, and their actions bring them around to where they can see you, they don't need to make a check, they've found you.

Now, if we decide that an elf is better at it than other creatures, I would recommend granting them expertise in it. My expertise is +2 with a max proficiency bonus of +6 (the best at what they do), not double proficiency. But it basically tells you it's still a mundane ability, but they are really good at it. Whichever form of expertise you use, at 1st level they are the equivalent of a 9th level character. At 5th level they are the same as a 17th level character (RAW), or a 13th level character (my way).

So now the 1st level elf isn't magical, it's just better. Would a (highly trained) 9th level character be better at hiding from a 1st level character? I think so. Is it magical? No, just better.

The most important point though, as far as I'm concerned, is you look at the circumstances first, and the rules should support it. Many gamers (especially some min/maxers and rules lawyers) look at it the opposite way, what do the rules allow me to do, even if it doesn't make sense? Like the Kobold Ballista.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I disagree an opaque total cover can have a mechanical effect on vision as it completely conceal you. So enough cover can let you hide behind if it's of sufficient size and opacity. For exemple you shouldn't be able to hide behing a transparent wall of force, even if it's 50 x 50 ft but you should behind the same wall made out of bricks.

I think what he's saying is that in and of itself, cover doesn't have a mechanical benefit on sight (the way the rules are written). For example, I allow a tower shield to provide cover, and that doesn't necessarily improve your chance of hiding. On the other hand, if you are in a battle line all advancing with tower shields, and the rogue is using that as concealment to sneak down to the end of the line, and ultimately around your position to come in behind you, the cover certainly does provide a mechanical benefit.

Another example where reading the text and developing the allowable actions by the rules, rather than looking at the circumstances and determining what advantages/disadvantages apply.

Does cover provide concealment? No, it doesn't say it does in the rules.

Oh, OK, if I duck behind that wall will I have concealment? Yes, and cover too.
 

Uller

Adventurer
If a halfling is in an empty wrll lit room with a tower shield...

If it was a woodelf and the towershield had a sprig of mistletoe...

Sorry...couldn't resist.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using EN World mobile app
 

Plaguescarred

D&D Playtester for WoTC since 2012
Does cover provide concealment? No, it doesn't say it does in the rules.

Oh, OK, if I duck behind that wall will I have concealment? Yes, and cover too.
Yes it can make you unseen while it describes the benefit as a physical obstruction, you still need to determine What Can You See as usual, by determining if it block vision or not. Obscurement is mainly for areas, not line of sight management so things like opaque full cover and blindness doesn't provide obscurement in and of itself, but it still makes you not seen and can thus allow hiding.

It's like being invisible for the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. It should be the same for someone not seen behind an opaque wall providing full cover.
 
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guachi

Hero
No It's not magical according to Sage Advice since the answer to all the questions is no http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-february-2016

Sage Advice: Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:

Is it a magic item?
Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
Is it a spell attack?
Does its description say it’s magical?
If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical.

Mask of the Wild: You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.

There's a difference between the "magical" that Crawford is asking and the general sense of "magical" like if dragons are magical or whatever. Elves are inherently magical beings in some D&D settings with every elf also being a wizard and you see that in 5e with all high elves automatically getting a cantrip.

When asked by my new-to-5e player how Mask of the Wild worked for her Wood Elf I said it was because elves were magical. The magical thing High Elves get is an at-will cantrip and the equivalent for a Wood Elf is magical hiding in nature.

Though if "fantastical" works better then the Wood Elf ability is fantastical.
 

Plaguescarred

D&D Playtester for WoTC since 2012
There's a difference between the "magical" that Crawford is asking and the general sense of "magical" like if dragons are magical or whatever. Elves are inherently magical beings in some D&D settings with every elf also being a wizard and you see that in 5e with all high elves automatically getting a cantrip.

When asked by my new-to-5e player how Mask of the Wild worked for her Wood Elf I said it was because elves were magical. The magical thing High Elves get is an at-will cantrip and the equivalent for a Wood Elf is magical hiding in nature.

Though if "fantastical" works better then the Wood Elf ability is fantastical.
The two ''magical'' distinctions are provided in the Sage Advice

But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:

1. the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures
2. the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect


While elves might be magical in the traditional sense of #1, their ability to hide in natural phenomenon would relates to #2 as a focused magical effect. Either way the Sage Advice provide a simple way to determine if something is magical or not and Mask of the Wild is not magical according to it is all i wanted to specify.
 

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