D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Maxperson]

I'm sure you're familiar enough with English to know that you can stare, perhaps vacantly, at something without actually seeing it, and that this is a common use of the word. How many times have you done this while looking for your keys?

When you stare at nothing, you are staring at nothing. That's explicitly not staring at something. When you are staring at something, you are explicitly NOT staring at nothing, you are staring at the the thing you are staring at. Nobody in the history of time has stared directly at something without looking at it with their eyes......DIRECTLY. Not you. Not me. Not anyone.

You are confusing staring in the direction of something, with staring at something. Those are two different things. The sage advice didn't say that the elf can hide with someone staring in its direction, but not actually staring at the elf. It said staring at the elf.

You may disagree with the sage advice. You may even change it for your game. But English being English, that sage advice was explicitly about being able to hide while being observed.

 

[Plaguescarred]

An elf or halfling can be seen clearly in their respective racial hiding places if they are not hidden, and you can't hide when seen clearly.

So you think that these racial features are extra conditions to be met in addition to not be seen clearly making it even harder for them to hide instead of making it easier for them to? Wow i don't even know what to tell you if you really think that

 

[Hriston]

Is that a serious interpretation of what you believe the Sage was talking about when he said it? Honestly?

Yes. The elf hides in a lightly obscured area of natural phenomena while unobserved, as per the rules on hiding while seen clearly. Anyone who then happens along and fails to beat the elf's Stealth roll doesn't see the elf, even if they are staring right at it.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Yes. The elf hides in a lightly obscured area of natural phenomena while unobserved, as per the rules on hiding while seen clearly. Anyone who then happens along and fails to beat the elf's Stealth roll doesn't see the elf, even if they are staring right at it.

You're concious that anyone can hide while unobserved since they're not seen clearly?

These racial features let them hide while being observed and seen clearly when it would otherwise not be possible. These features facilitate hiding, not make them harder to by requiring additional conditions to be met in order to hide.

 

[Hriston]

You're concious that anyone can hide while unobserved since they're not seen clearly?

Actually no. That's what's up for debate here. You and others are interpreting the phrase in the Hiding sidebar as permission to hide whenever you are not seen clearly. To me, that phrase is giving one (albeit the most common) of many possible circumstances which are inappropriate for hiding. What such inappropriate circumstances have in common is that under them your location is known, which is the opposite of hiding.

These racial features let them hide while being observed and seen clearly when it would otherwise not be possible. These features facilitate hiding, not make them harder to by requiring additional conditions to be met in order to hide.

The features provide a circumstance under which these races can hide, which would otherwise be inappropriate for keeping your location unknown. If you have been observed or seen clearly, however, then your location is known, and hiding doesn't undo that.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Actually no. That's what's up for debate here. You and others are interpreting the phrase in the Hiding sidebar as permission to hide whenever you are not seen clearly. To me, that phrase is giving one (albeit the most common) of many possible circumstances which are inappropriate for hiding. What such inappropriate circumstances have in common is that under them your location is known, which is the opposite of hiding.

If your location isn't concealed unless hidden and that the rules say an invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide, this very much invalidate your arguments right here.

The features provide a circumstance under which these races can hide, which would otherwise be inappropriate for keeping your location unknown. If you have been observed or seen clearly, however, then your location is known, and hiding doesn't undo that.

Even developpers answered in tweets that the features could be used in combat so they also seem to not share your interpretation.

You location is always known before you hide since hiding is what conceal it! If you could only hide when no one was around the rules would say so. They instead say you can't hide when seen clearly and also this:


Hiding: When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren’t searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score

 

[Uller]

It is revelant as there are game elements interacting with creature that are specifically hidden such as Surprise, Alert, Magical Ambush etc...

Okay, I'm largely on your side in this....or at least I'm in the hidden is defined as "unheard and unseen regardless of whether the observer can guess your exact location based on prior information" camp. I mean...I can understand the other POV but I reject it because in most circumstances it isn't some cut and dry situation.

But I'm positively confused what this has to do with surprise. Are you suggesting that a halfing, wandering about the dungeon alone walks into a well lit room with no ambient noise. In the room is an orc sitting at a table enjoying a meat pie and there is a box large enough for the halfling to hide in. The DM consults the old school monster reaction table and determines the orc is indifferent to the halfling. So the halfing, while the orc watches, climbs into the box and makes a successful stealth check to hide, making the orc unaware of him so that he can leap out of the box and gain a surprise round...is someone suggesting that? If so, I missed it. Seems a bit of a stretch...

 

[Uller]

If you have been observed or seen clearly, however, then your location is known, and hiding doesn't undo that.

You are correct. 'Hiding' (as in passing a stealth vs perception check while meeting the conditions to hide - not clearly seen) does not remove any knowledge from the observer. If you hide, then don't move, and your observer has no reason to believe you've moved and reason to believe you could not have moved then he knows your location. But until he does something to reveal you (such as move and look in the box) then you are still 'hidden' (unheard and unseen...not observer has forgotten you exist)

 

[Jester David]

I try and treat hiding for PCs like my players would like me to treat hiding for the monsters thy face. If they can duck behind a wall and be "hidden" then so can the monsters they fight. If they want to be able to make hit-and-run tactics and gain bonuses for being "hidden" mid-fight then so can their foes.

Not being able to target the goblins attacking from the underbrush isn't fun for players. Why would it be fun for th DM not to be able to target the rogue?

 

[Plaguescarred]

But I'm positively confused what this has to do with surprise. Are you suggesting that a halfing, wandering about the dungeon alone walks into a well lit room with no ambient noise. In the room is an orc sitting at a table enjoying a meat pie and there is a box large enough for the halfling to hide in. The DM consults the old school monster reaction table and determines the orc is indifferent to the halfling. So the halfing, while the orc watches, climbs into the box and makes a successful stealth check to hide, making the orc unaware of him so that he can leap out of the box and gain a surprise round...is someone suggesting that? If so, I missed it. Seems a bit of a stretch...

Surprise is a game element interacting with being hidden specifically. I just basically wanted to say that there is a difference between a creature unseen in a box vs a creature hidden in one, since some game elements interact with hidden creature specifically could be in play that simply an unseen creature would not interact with.


FWIW in your above exemple i don't think there would be any surprise because when the halfling would enter in the room at the start of encounter, since neither him nor the orc are hidden then they would automatically notice each other. On the other hand if the halfling would enter the same room but the orc would be hidden in the box then a surprise could potentially happen if the halfling fail to perceive the orc.


Surprise: If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’tnotice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter