D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

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Hiya!

TL;DR

In a nutshell...no, sorta. ;) I don't care if someone changes canon, but what can ruffle my feathers is what changes are made.

Greyhawk: "I never liked the Circle of Eight so they are mostly just a semi-famous band of adventurers. They aren't known all over and they didn't do most of what they are attributed with". <-- that'd be just fine with me.

...but...

Greyhawk: "I never liked the Circle of Eight so I just replaced them with the Harpers from FR, and Mordenkainen is replaced with Elminster, Tenser with Blackstaff, and Lord Robilar with Drizz't". <-- THAT would bug the absolute poop outta me! (I don't like 'new' FR and friends; new being post Grey Box).

So, someone changing? Go for it! Makes it more unique in my mind! But replacing stuff with stuff that annoys me from other settings or whatever? Yeah, then I care about canon. I'm old and cantankerous, and set in my ways...sue me. ;)

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

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Would a change to, say, the Great Weapon Master have a negative effect?

In the analogy I'm drawing, the effect is comparable.

I don't dispute that it's entirely possible to ignore them both.

But if you can understand the need to be conservative with errata, then one should be able to understand the need to be conservative with lore changes. The reasons are similar.

And if one can't see the need for either, then the work to be done is the work done months ago: to show once again how these actually disrupt actual games.

Have you heard the one about the gnome wild mage yet?

Sure, I can understand that trying to keep lore changes to a minimum is probably the best approach. But when changes are justified, I do think that they should go ahead and make them. This is from the design view.

From the view of a DM using material to create a game? Setting canon doesn't mean much at all to me....my players and I create our own canon.

And I'll add that when my players have sought to go against the grain in some manner, that is usually what got my gears going the most. Your gnome wild made...how do we make that work in Dragonlance? That kind of exercise is what usually binds a character closely to the setting precisely because the setting is being so strongly considered during the character creation process.

I enjoy lore for fictional worlds. But I enjoy using it as a springboard for ideas more than anything else.
 

My argument was never that sticking to continuity/canon was the only factor... but that all things being equal I think even casual viewers and readers would rather have a work that is coherent in it's continuity, canon and lore.
Everything else being equal, I don't think casual viewers care very much about consistency over episodes that come months and years apart. I've given my reasons upthread - namely, non-causal people I know don't care, and casual people I know also don't care. I don't know of any contrary evidence.

Your argument seems to assume one can't have both a good story/lore and canon/continuity... but they aren't mutually exclusive
That depends entirely on the canon. To quote Ryan Dancey:

From: "Ryan S. Dancey" <ryand@frpg.com>
Newsgroups: RPG.DnD.Greyhawk
Subject: What is and is not Cannon
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 17:45:00

. . .

2. If something is 'thrown out', why?

First, the amount of knowledge that will be considered "cannon" has to be of a reasonably minimal size. It is simply impossible to keep every piece of fact accurate and checked when the volume of such material expands to the size of something like one of our popular campaign worlds. Trying to do so has created false expectations in the consumer population, and triggered numerous conflicts within the company.

Second, there is a lot of data that contradicts itself. This is bound to happen when you have multiple sources for the content that are not centrally managed, and over time, even central management tends to change focus and introduce conflicts. Therefore, not every single fact in every single product >can< be considered cannon - something must be dropped.

Third, some of the material produced for our worlds is crap. Pulling no punches, not every word written under the banner of a D&D world logo is suitable for print or should ever have been published. Rather than hold our noses and pretend that such material is signficant, we're going to simply pretend that it does not exist and stop trying to patch it up or fix it.​

Avengers pulls of the traditional costume look for most of it's heroes, with the exception of Scarlet Witch
And Hawkeye, who doesn't have the purple hood/mask. And Thor doesn't have the yellow belt or winged helmet, and has armour rather than a tunic/leotard.

There are visuals that worked in 1960s/70s/80s 4-colour that just don't look as good in a contemporary film.
 

if you can understand the need to be conservative with errata, then one should be able to understand the need to be conservative with lore changes. The reasons are similar.
Not as I have encountered the game for going on 35 years.

The mechanics of the game are generally taken as a baseline - houserules are just that, namely, local departures from a shared baseline. Errata can cause confusion over what the baseline is.

But the lore of any particular setting has never been taken as a baseline. I remember when UA came out in the mid-80s, and there were complaints in Dragon magazine that it seemed to be treating the World of Greyhawk as a baseline (with Valley Elves, the rules for the Barbarian class, etc) and this was understood as contrary to the basic tenor of RPGing - where the default, as far as setting is concerned, is that tables make their own choices.

You are literally the first person I have ever encountered who actively has as a goal for RPG play to emulate someone else's fictional idea by means of your play, such that if it turns out someone else interprets the source material (say, DL) differently, you get upset. (For clarity: what you are saying you want to do is very different from the person who sets out to play a PC who emulates his/her own conception of Aragorn, Conan or whomever. For that person, it doesn't matter if someone else interprets the source material differently.)

running a homebrew game isn't incompatible with a conservative idea of lore.
Of one's own lore. Not of others'.

Using the lore doesn't mean holding it in stasis. It means using it in play, to inform characters and narratives and mechanics. It necessarily changes and develops in the course of play. But if it changes because some developer had a Cool Idea, that disrupts the characters and narratives and mechanics that were part of that lore before.

<snip>

changing game lore automatically disrupts existing games using old lore just as much as a errata does.
What is the mechanism of disruption?

All you're pointing to is that people feel invalidated because another author, whose work they were emulating, changed what s/he thinks about the work in question.

But why do people feel invalidated? If you are happy playing your game using supplement 101, and then supplement 102 is published which contradicts supplement 102, why dose that disrupt your reliance upon 101? How are you worse off than if 102 had just never been published?

if you build a character to be a powerful two-handed weapon user, and you use the game's mechanics to realize that goal, and then a new book comes along and nerfs a key part of your build, that disrupts your play. Even though RPG mechanics are meant for player input, even though you can use the old rule just fine, that change has a negative effect on the game you're playing.
This isn't true. (Perhaps it accurately describes how these things affect you. But it doesn't generalise.)

In my 4e game, there was a player playing a character who used CaGI as a key part of a polearm martial controller build. WotC released errata that (in my view, and the player's view) wrecked CaGI in an attempt to appease the "dissociated mechanics" crowd. But that errata didn't disrupt anyone's play at our table, or have any sort of negative effect, because . . . *drum roll* . . . *wait for it* . . . we ignored it!

Conversely - it seemed obvious to me that Weapon Focus was meant to be a buff for martial characters, not spell-using ones - so a player shouldn't be able to take the Weapon Focus feat for his/her PC and get a buff to both Weapon and Implement attacks. So we implemented that rule. When, a year or something later, WotC released errata to the same effect, it didn't disrupt our game because we'd already noticed and solved the problem!

The same thing is true if you build a society of gnolls with active trade with your central kingdom, using the game's lore to realize that goal, and then a new book comes along and claims that gnolls are all destructive demon-spawn. That disrupts your play in basically the same way.
No.

In my 4e campaign it was clear from the start that the Raven Queen was something of a grim god. Subsequent published material gave a different impression (eg the E1 module). That didn't disrupt any play at my table - we just ignored it!

The idea of "outsiders" [? souls that don't get to go to heaven] and islands around the Astral Domains, that was published in The Plane Above, doesn't do anything for me and doesn't really fit with the ideas about the afterlife that have emerged in our game (which instead revolve around The Bridge That May Be Traversed But Once - see also here). But that's OK, because I just ignore all that stuff, and my players certainly don't care about it.

It's more meaningful because you've used the canon to have an impact in play.
Why does the impact of some story idea upon the play, by you and your friends, of your RPG campaign, depend upon validation by a commercial publisher who (in your case) is on the other side of the country and (in my case) is on the other side of the world?

That makes no sense. At least, it makes no sense to me. I don't play my game to please WotC by faithfully adhering to the stuff they think is worth publishing. I play my game to please me and my friends.

Another Ryan Dancey quote seems apposite here:

We can demonstrate a commitment to supporting >your< stories. >Your< worlds. And we can make the game fun again.

Our customers were telling us that we produced too many products, and that the stuff we produced was of inferior quality? We can fix that. We can cut back on the number of products we release, and work hard to make sure that each and every book we publish is useful, interesting, and of high quality.

Our customers were telling us that we spent too much time on our own worlds, and not enough time on theirs? Ok - we can fix that. We can re-orient the business towards tools, towards examples, towards universal systems and rules that aren't dependent on owning a thousand dollars of unnecessary materials first.​

I play the game to tell my group's stories. Not TSR's or WotC's. The material they publish is just a means to that end.
 
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"Deadpool was a successful movie" doesn't show a property that benefited by excessive changing of lore and canon.
No one in this thread has asserted that anything ever succeeded in virtue of excessive changing of lore and canon. That would be contradictory, wouldn't it? (Unless you have some other concept of what is excessive.) It succeeded because, among other things, it was good - and part of being good involved disregarding lore and canon.

And there is no evidence I'm aware of that this was a sub-optimal strategy.
 

Canon is Conan's tribe being wiped out and him being taken prisoner. Hardly surprising that he's the only one you see.
As I mentioned upthread, this is taking the view that there is nothing more to making sense of a work than understanding its in-fiction logic.

There is also a creative, artistic reason why there is no other Cimmerian in the stories - the Cimmerian is the vehicle for REH's projection of himself into the story, and the imagined past that he is writing about.

Quite the opposite, really. Canon already supplies a detective as good or better than Homes. Moriarty is a great detective that uses his exceptional ability for evil.
But Moriarty is not solving equally baffling mysteries just off-stage. Moriarty is a core character in the fiction! So is hardly a counterexample to my contention.

The Oriental Adventures has been optionally placed into other campaign setting like the Forgotten Realms by the company. Just because the Celestial Emperor rules the heaven of the Oriental Adventures, does not mean that there can be no other gods in the world. In fact, page 137 of the 1e Oriental Adventures has rules for Gajin, which allows clerics from other lands with other gods to adventure in Kara Tur. So right there canon blows your statement out of the water.
The merging of OA into Kara-Tur is, in my view, a mistake. I disregard it when I run OA.

There are of course other gods than the Celestial Emperor. The point is that he is in charge of them. If not, then it turns out that the whole premise of the Celestial Bureaucracy is overturned, and the setting becomes an ironic parody of the Planescape variety.
 

Third, some of the material produced for our worlds is crap. Pulling no punches, not every word written under the banner of a D&D world logo is suitable for print or should ever have been published. Rather than hold our noses and pretend that such material is signficant, we're going to simply pretend that it does not exist and stop trying to patch it up or fix it.

Leave it to Dancey to confirm what we have all been saying all this time - dont even try and pretend that the crap material even exists, kick it to the curb along with the Eladrin and Mind Flayer Sun Killers.
 

As I mentioned upthread, this is taking the view that there is nothing more to making sense of a work than understanding its in-fiction logic.

There is also a creative, artistic reason why there is no other Cimmerian in the stories - the Cimmerian is the vehicle for REH's projection of himself into the story, and the imagined past that he is writing about.

Settings don't deal with the artistic in the same way books and movies do. Not inherently anyway. They're a pile of rules and lore that makes them stand apart from the core.

But Moriarty is not solving equally baffling mysteries just off-stage. Moriarty is a core character in the fiction! So is hardly a counterexample to my contention.

We don't really know what Moriarty does off-stage ;)

Seriously, though, he exists as a core character in canon, which does show that other such geniuses exist in that setting. It is an example that shows that Holmes is not alone in his brand of genius.

The merging of OA into Kara-Tur is, in my view, a mistake. I disregard it when I run OA.

Which is fine, but not canon

There are of course other gods than the Celestial Emperor. The point is that he is in charge of them. If not, then it turns out that the whole premise of the Celestial Bureaucracy is overturned, and the setting becomes an ironic parody of the Planescape variety.

By canon he is not in charge of the gajin ones. He is only in charge of the Celestial Court, which are the oriental gods. A gajin cleric that shows up in the setting follows a god that is not a part of the Celestial Court and who is not subject to the Celestial Emperor.
 

Quite the opposite, really. Canon already supplies a detective as good or better than Homes. Moriarty is a great detective that uses his exceptional ability for evil. Be no problem that I can see for another one to appear. Maybe an American.

Sherlock Holmes himself says that his brother is smarter then he is - but also much lazier, which is why he sends Sherlock to investigate things.

Hercule Poirot could also have been logically operating at the same time in Europe.
 

Sherlock Holmes himself says that his brother is smarter then he is - but also much lazier, which is why he sends Sherlock to investigate things.

Hercule Poirot could also have been logically operating at the same time in Europe.

Just as an aside. If you've never seen it, you need to watch Murder by Death.
 

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