D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Maxperson]

I said they couldn't be attacked, because they can't. If elves break off from combat so as to be unobserved, becoming invisible and undetected, then they are no longer in combat and won't be until they initiate the attack.

Then in my example they cannot interrupt the spell without entering combat, which was my point. In any case, multiple scenarios were presented to you whereby those elves get hit by the fireball without being able to get out of the way or stop the spell. Why are you avoiding responding to them?

I'd say if someone is casting fireball, combat is underway. What I disagree with is the idea that invisible undetected elves could be attacked with a fireball.

We've shown multiple examples of the elves being killed outside of combat while invisible and unknown to the "attacker".

 

[Hriston]

Except that it's not. There is no rule that provides that invisibility protects against being caught in AOE.

Let's keep it straight. It's invisible and undetected that makes it so you can't be attacked. Areas of Effect are attack forms, so yes there is a rule.

But here's a scenario. The elves are unaware (having missed all possible rolls to detect the casting) of the spell being cast and are standing at the door.

There are no rolls to detect the casting. By the time the fireball hits the door, the elves are no longer there.

 

[Maxperson]

There are no rolls to detect the casting. By the time the fireball hits the door, the elves are no longer there.

You asked me to present a scenario, and I did. It is an unalterable, undeniable fact that the elves are not aware that the fireball is coming. It's my scenario, not yours. Deal with it as presented or admit failure.

 

[Alatar]

Let's keep it straight. It's invisible and undetected that makes it so you can't be attacked. Areas of Effect are attack forms, so yes there is a rule.

Casting a spell is not an attack. Casting a spell may involve one or more attacks, involving one or more attack rolls. But spells such as Fireball do not involve attacks.

Pages 192 and 193 of the Combat chapter in the Player's Handbook detail the actions that can be taken in combat under the heading Actions in Combat. Those actions are:

• Attack
• Cast a Spell
• Dash
• Disengage
• Dodge
• Help
• Hide
• Ready
• Search
• Use an Object

The next section in the Combat chapter is entitled Making an Attack, which details a three step process involving an attack roll. In 5e D&D, an attack is a three step process that involves an attack roll.

There are two exceptions to this definition of an attack. Those exceptions are grappling and shoving a creature, as detailed on page 195 of the Player's Handbook in the sections entitled Grappling and Shoving a Creature, where these attacks are identified as special melee attacks.

Casting Fireball does not involve making an attack roll. Casting Fireball is not identified as a special melee attack. Casting Fireball is not an attack. Rather, casting Fireball is casting a spell.

I am an unrepentant pedant, but Jeremy Crawford chose his words carefully and purposefully when he wrote the Combat chapter of the PHB. They are meant to be interpreted literally. The phrase "attack form" is not present in the PHB.

 

[pemerton]

Casting a spell is not an attack. Casting a spell may involve one or more attacks, involving one or more attack rolls. But spells such as Fireball do not involve attacks.

Pages 192 and 193 of the Combat chapter in the Player's Handbook detail the actions that can be taken in combat under the heading Actions in Combat.

The discussion between [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] is about Gygax's AD&D, not 5e. The context for the discussion is a comparison of the AD&D elf ability to become invisible in natural surroundings to the 5e elf ability Mask of the Wild.

 

[Yunru]

Yes, the discussion at this point can be boiled down to:
"Obvious case where an undetected elf can still be hit by a fireball, as requested."
"Lalalala."

To continue as such. There is a corridor with a room attached. Two elves stand guard over the room, when they detect the party (without being detected in turn). They enter the room and hide, planning to set up an ambush. The players fireball the room.

 

[Alatar]

Yes, the discussion at this point can be boiled down to:
"Obvious case where an undetected elf can still be hit by a fireball, as requested."
"Lalalala."

Given your summary, the "Lalalala" argument seems to lack a certain cogency. Fireballs don't target creatures or things, they merely fill areas. Creatures and things in those areas are affected by the effect, unless those creatures or things have some property or ability that causes them to remain unaffected by the effect, such as a 5e rogue's Evasion feature.

What I disagree with is the idea that invisible undetected elves could be attacked with a fireball.

This seems to me to be an extreme position, hinging on the word "attack." In a purely gamist sense, that does not make it wrong. It could well be a logically consistent application of RAW. I'll leave the AD&D rules parsing to you. My copy of the book is covered in the dust of ages. But if your interpretation stands up to such scrutiny, it does bring into sharp focus the arbitrary nature of the rules of the game, assailing one's suspension of disbelief. My own understanding of the effects AD&D fireballs, formed during the Jimmy Carter administration, were that they were not quite so quixotic, though I cannot claim, at this point, that those views had any objective merit.

 

[Hriston]

Then in my example they cannot interrupt the spell without entering combat, which was my point.

Sure they can. The spell takes 18 seconds to cast whether in combat or not.

In any case, multiple scenarios were presented to you whereby those elves get hit by the fireball without being able to get out of the way or stop the spell. Why are you avoiding responding to them?

I'm not avoiding them. I've been very busy correcting the rules-misunderstandings you seem to introduce with pretty much every post. I don't have all the time in the world to post in an online forum.

We've shown multiple examples of the elves being killed outside of combat while invisible and unknown to the "attacker".

I look forward to considering these examples, but I doubt whether, under scrutiny, they'll be found to conform to the rules.

 

[Hriston]

You asked me to present a scenario, and I did. It is an unalterable, undeniable fact that the elves are not aware that the fireball is coming. It's my scenario, not yours. Deal with it as presented or admit failure.

Why don't they know it's coming? Normally, it's obvious to everyone that a spell is being cast as soon as the player declares the action.

 

[Hriston]

I probably should not jump into the middle of somebody else's argument, but at least I don't have a pre-set conclusion I want to reach.

The PCs, with a silly-large supply of Wands of Fireball, have entered the dungeon with orders to slay every living thing therein. The elves saw the PCs coming (but were not seen in turn), and ducked into a room to hide. The PCs are methodically going to every door, opening it up just a crack, inserting the end of a Wand, and Fireballing the room. The PCs are not even trying to find out if anything / anybody is in each room. Bigger rooms get up-cast Fireballs that fill the space the PCs can see.

Do the undetected elves get hit by the Fireball? Why / why not?

No, because while the PCs are going from room to room, the elves are changing their location so as to avoid being in a room where there's a fireball.