D&D 5E Lich's To Weak for Their CR?

[Zardnaar]

I'm going to run an AD&D level 6-8 adventure (The Forgotten Man from Dungeon) and the main BBEG is a lich.

The 5E lich for a CR 20+ being looks kinda weak, Sure it has level 9 spells but so do other NPCs at CR 12 and the lich abilities do not seem to be worth CR+8 to me.

I am also treating my PCs as a level or 2 higher due to higher ability scores (rolled) and a decent amount of magic items they found in prepublished adventures (Monk has a Staff of Striking for example+ cloak of displacement).

Thoughts on the Lich?

 

[flametitan]

Don't forget that the Lich has a higher AC, better saves, A higher DC and attack bonus, slightly more hit points, does not need to expend spell slots before the fight like the archmage does, Legendary resistance, legendary actions, and a paralyzing effect it can do without casting spells as a legendary action/regular action. Oh, and a default spell list more combat oriented. That's a factor in CR calculations that is somewhat neglected (spells don't seem to be tradable on a 1:1 basis, but it's commonly acted like they are).

Whether that's worth CR 21 is debatable, but it's got more to it than the CR 12 does. And don't forget to throw in the Lair actions, if applicable.

You say it's an AD&D adventure for levels 6-8, but is that the level of the party itself?

 

[discosoc]

Remember what a lich actually is. Like vampires, these monsters are meant to be used with max intelligence and planning. They dont get surprised, and basically prepare for everything.

 

[MostlyDm]

Bear in mind that the DMG assumes even for high CR monsters that immunities are a useful defensive buff, x1.25 to the monster's effective HP for calculation purposes. If every single PC has easy ability to overcome the Lich's immunities, a quick start to make sure it remains competitive would simply be to multiply its HP by 1.25, up from 135 to 168.

Other than that, the Lich is mainly adept at rapidly removing threats from the board. Frightening Gaze to temporarily remove an enemy. Offensive plane shift is hard to pull off but incredibly brutal. Level 6 party members should be susceptible to Power Words without even being damaged down first. Make sure to keep his reaction banked for a key counterspell.

It seems like, unless this party of level 6-8 PCs is insanely overbuilt, the Lich should be extremely dangerous. He's squishy though, for sure, so if you cherry tap a party of that level he probably won't stand a chance. He'll have to come out swinging... just like 99% of the monsters in the book, frankly.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

This might be of interest http://slyflourish.com/deadly_lich.html

 

[Warmaster Horus]

The Phlactery is more or less why they're CR 21. Sure, you can kill them once, but killing them permanently is a hard trick to pull off. Then you have an unkillable high-level mage with all the time in the world planning revenge on you. Not fun.

 

[Zardnaar]

The Phlactery is more or less why they're CR 21. Sure, you can kill them once, but killing them permanently is a hard trick to pull off. Then you have an unkillable high-level mage with all the time in the world planning revenge on you. Not fun.

I think the Phylactery is in the lair.

I might tweak the spell list or make it a bardic lich as the Lich kind of thinks it is a bard anyway. Or was a bard in real life.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Remember what a lich actually is. Like vampires, these monsters are meant to be used with max intelligence and planning. They dont get surprised, and basically prepare for everything.

The Phlactery is more or less why they're CR 21. Sure, you can kill them once, but killing them permanently is a hard trick to pull off. Then you have an unkillable high-level mage with all the time in the world planning revenge on you. Not fun.

These two things can't be overstated. Some genius level creature that's been around for centuries is going to be prepared, and has probably thought of just about everything. Since they've been collecting lost knowledge and magic for centuries, they probably have a ton of magic at their disposal that doesn't appear in the spell list. Probably a lot of things that help nullify any hostile magic towards it, as well as providing ample warning to the lich if someone is encroaching. For example, a lich doesn't require air. So if I'm said lich, I would have something in my lair that takes advantage of that. Like sealing off the tomb and immediately flooding it full of water with a command word to spring the trap. Sucks to be the PCs in that situation.

And even if you get to the mechanical bits, it has some pretty awful stuff not even counting it's spells, attacks, or legendary actions. That energy tether and spirit creature summoning is pretty tough. 15d6 necrotic damage on a DC 18 save? That alone would wipe out most level 6-8 PCs immediately. Even if a PC has prof in CON saves and a high CON, they are still going to fail more than half the time at that level (and if a wizard gets hit with it, forget about it).

So yeah, if I'm the DM, I could taking into consideration everything about the lich (the bits I quoted and the stuff I added above), I could easily make it a very difficult challenge for a max level standard party.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I thik the Phylactery is in the lair.

.

It's wherever the lich wants it to be, and isn't required to be in the lair

 

[Zardnaar]

It's wherever the lich wants it to be, and isn't required to be in the lair

Its a prepublished adventure, one of the best 2E adventures I have seen in Dungeon and one of the better AD&D overall. Always wanted to run it back in the day.

The AD&D lich has meteor swarm as one of the spells known, the 5E one uses power word kill. I might change it for foresight which makes the Lich less squishy and a bit less deadly.

Most of the adventure is things like gargoyles, Jermalaine (similar to kobolds), wights, worgs, dire wolf and a few were wolves.