D&D 5E Lich's To Weak for Their CR?

[Rhenny]

During the playtest, I used a playtest Lich vs. 3 pcs of 10th or 11th level (can't remember now). They had already gone through about 6 encounters (varying from easy to medium) so they were a bit down, but not completely exhausted. Then they encountered a Bone Devil (which they polymorphed into a goat), and then the Lich came into the room casting cloud kill. With the cloud up, the Lich went back into his own room and kept the door open. As PCs came into the room, they were susceptible to his aura and readied claw attacks. They also had to save vs. being frightened. It sucked when the fighter had to run from it because he failed his save. Eventually the group prevailed, but it took about 8 or 9 rounds...then they found the goat and had to battle the Bone Devil. It was tough as a combined encounter at the end of an adventure.

Unfortunately, I haven't played with the 5e Lich and a comparable set of PCs. They are definitely more powerful in the 5e version than they were in the playtest.

I'm thinking that you'll need to plan the Lich's tactics so that he can limit the number of PCs that can attack him at one time, and possible bait them with traps or other tactics. Also, it will help if the group can encounter it when it is not at full strength of course.

You are right, about the CR 21. I don't think it is that bad, but it will challenge a party at level 10 or 12 (maybe higher). Having finger of death, power word kill, disintegrate could be nasty. It can also escape using dimension door and plot more mayhem. Lair actions make it even more powerful. But, like most 5e monsters, it still could stand to use some minions to protect it.

 

[ccs]

The AD&D lich has meteor swarm as one of the spells known, the 5E one uses power word kill. I might change it for foresight which makes the Lich less squishy and a bit less deadly.

So why are you worried about it being too weak for its CR??

 

[GameOgre]

I myself would worry that the Lich would totally destroy that party. What magic items does the Lich have? I have nothing against store bought adventures but keep in mind YOU are the one running a adventure for your PC's and alter the adventure for your group!

Unless you played the Lich as a bag of hit points with a few spells I would think they this would be a very uneven fight. Also yes in EVERY single edition of D&D I have had to alter the npc/monsters known and readied spells as well as magic items.

The Last time I ran a Lich against my guys they were much higher level and after one round of getting curb stomped they ran for all they were worth.

*Also the Lich should never ever EVER face the party alone. special beefed up undead booby trapped to explode or set off traps or just take the hit for the Lich should surround him and He should do hit and run tactics against the party well before they try and beard him in his lair. Undead attacking for a round while the invisible Lich gains the right spot and then casts a spell or two and kills off one party member (often the healer) before escaping (Always have a out) to attack again is just one tactic a Lich could use.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Liches, weak? You're worried that a (nigh-)unkillable creature with supergenius intellect and basically infinite 1st-8th level spells (thanks to lair action) plus the 9th level spells of an archmage is too weak?

I'll give you that has a relatively weak spell list (although Cloudkill VIII combined with a nigh-infinite horde of skeletons/zombies thanks to the aforementioned nigh-infinite 8th level Animate Dead spells is a pretty good synergy, since skeletons and zombies are immune to poison damage), though the MM page 10 outright says, "You can change the spells that a monster knows or has prepared, replacing any spell on a monster's spell list with a different spell of the same level and from the same class list," so you don't have to feel married to that list anyway. Even if you don't change it, the Lich has a ton of mobility spells, AC 22 thanks to Shield (unless the lich's reaction is busy with Counterspell, another excellent spell on its list), the ability to exile a PC to another plane via Plane Shift, Power Word Kill to kill the party wizard, Fireball to deal with minions, immunity to normal weapons, etc.

The lich is one of the stronger CR 20+ creatures in the MM. It's weaker than a Tarrasque in a cage fight, but so what? D&D isn't a game about cage fights. I had a 5E DM once tell us the story of a legendary lich who took down armies, and then he had the lich fight one of the PCs in basically a punching match, using its Paralyzing Touch over and over against that PC inside of a Minor Globe of Invulnerability IX that the PC had set up (BTW, the PC was immune to paralyzation due to a ring that it had) until it finally ran out of HP. Then it died. That lich was weak, and it was totally on the DM for playing the lich like a moron and failing to adapt to circumstances. (E.g. by exiting the Minor Globe of Invulnerability and coming back in sixty seconds, after it expired.) 5E liches are (nigh-)unkillable supergenius archwizards with nigh-unlimited 1st-8th level spells. If you roleplay them in even a vaguely plausible fashion they will be nightmares for the PCs.

I love the idea of a lich who sets himself up as basically a combination patron/archnemesis for the PCs from low level and basically cherry taps them into unconsciousness (beats them with implausibly weak weapons just to demonstrate mastery; "I will defeat you without using more than a single spell the whole fight") whenever he feels bored, while being careful never to kill them permanently (because that would end the game!) and also occasionally leading them to good magic items, in the same way that I donate technology and systems to the AI when playing Master of Orion II and am careful to never quite kill off the Antaran homeworld even as I practice destroying it with successively-smaller task forces. I mean, it's not like the PCs are a threat or anything. Even if they win a combat and destroy the lich's body, it just reforms in 1d10 days. The PCs are just an amusement.

Until one day they aren't, and suddenly everything gets serious.

 

[Zardnaar]

Liches, weak? You're worried that a (nigh-)unkillable creature with supergenius intellect and basically infinite 1st-8th level spells (thanks to lair action) plus the 9th level spells of an archmage is too weak?

I'll give you that has a relatively weak spell list (although Cloudkill VIII combined with a nigh-infinite horde of skeletons/zombies thanks to the aforementioned nigh-infinite 8th level Animate Dead spells is a pretty good synergy, since skeletons and zombies are immune to poison damage), though the MM page 10 outright says, "You can change the spells that a monster knows or has prepared, replacing any spell on a monster's spell list with a different spell of the same level and from the same class list," so you don't have to feel married to that list anyway. Even if you don't change it, the Lich has a ton of mobility spells, AC 22 thanks to Shield (unless the lich's reaction is busy with Counterspell, another excellent spell on its list), the ability to exile a PC to another plane via Plane Shift, Power Word Kill to kill the party wizard, Fireball to deal with minions, immunity to normal weapons, etc.

The lich is one of the stronger CR 20+ creatures in the MM. It's weaker than a Tarrasque in a cage fight, but so what? D&D isn't a game about cage fights. I had a 5E DM once tell us the story of a legendary lich who took down armies, and then he had the lich fight one of the PCs in basically a punching match, using its Paralyzing Touch over and over against that PC inside of a Minor Globe of Invulnerability IX that the PC had set up (BTW, the PC was immune to paralyzation due to a ring that it had) until it finally ran out of HP. Then it died. That lich was weak, and it was totally on the DM for playing the lich like a moron and failing to adapt to circumstances. (E.g. by exiting the Minor Globe of Invulnerability and coming back in sixty seconds, after it expired.) 5E liches are (nigh-)unkillable supergenius archwizards with nigh-unlimited 1st-8th level spells. If you roleplay them in even a vaguely plausible fashion they will be nightmares for the PCs.

I love the idea of a lich who sets himself up as basically a combination patron/archnemesis for the PCs from low level and basically cherry taps them into unconsciousness (beats them with implausibly weak weapons just to demonstrate mastery; "I will defeat you without using more than a single spell the whole fight") whenever he feels bored, while being careful never to kill them permanently (because that would end the game!) and also occasionally leading them to good magic items, in the same way that I donate technology and systems to the AI when playing Master of Orion II and am careful to never quite kill off the Antaran homeworld even as I practice destroying it with successively-smaller task forces. I mean, it's not like the PCs are a threat or anything. Even if they win a combat and destroy the lich's body, it just reforms in 1d10 days. The PCs are just an amusement.

Until one day they aren't, and suddenly everything gets serious.

THe final encounter is more or lesas a cage fight the Lich has 40 skelitons available for help. But the party has a light cleric so they are all dead easy enough due to radiance of the dawn.

The phylactery was hiding in plain sight as a statue. Not sure if it would detect as magical.

 

[Delazar]

Put the melee guys in a dome of force, while you kill the casters with power word kill, disintegration, finger of deat

 

[GameOgre]

If I am DMing a adventure that pits the party against a epic monster but the adventure calls for the epic monster to not fight as it should,not use it's best options,not act like the epic monster realistically should, it better have a overwhelming great reason for doing so or I am going to alter the adventure.

Adventures are not set in stone. A Lich and 40 skeletons is not a good encounter as is. How stupid would a Lich have to be to set up this as his final battle?

 

[Zardnaar]

If I am DMing a adventure that pits the party against a epic monster but the adventure calls for the epic monster to not fight as it should,not use it's best options,not act like the epic monster realistically should, it better have a overwhelming great reason for doing so or I am going to alter the adventure.

Adventures are not set in stone. A Lich and 40 skeletons is not a good encounter as is. How stupid would a Lich have to be to set up this as his final battle?

Its AD&D its how encounters were designed. In AD&D you could encounter level 18+ NPCs and things like liches in the mid levels. Note even in 5E a lot of NPC spell casters do not have optimised spell lists for combat. Same thing happened in AD&D where you might have to worry about a fireball being cast by said lich at level 8 (and in 2E that fireball was 10d6, 18d6 1E).

The adventure has a lot of role playing in it, the Lich if it was in 3.5 would have been a bardic lich with the lich template. The Lich is also not really a good lich as he was not transformed willingly so even though its smart it kind of lacks some of the erm cunning of a regular lich I suppose.

Its spent 500 years waiting a prophecy as Bane/Cyric/evil BBEG type god transformed it against its will to act as a guardian. I think the PCs are 2-4 levels away from being able to handle it RAW so I am going to rewrite the encounter.

The Lich is goian to be an AD&D lich (5E quasi lich? ) so I will strip away its lair actions and/or legendary actions so it will be a level 18 spellcaster with perhaps its spells drawn from the Bard list to better match up the fluff from the adventure.

So this lich is going to be a lot weaker than a normal lich probably CR 13 or 14.

I still think the CR 21 lich is more like CR 15 or 16 than 21.

My PCs are also over equipped perhaps as they have a staff of striking and a +3 intelligent longsword that you can finesse that is intelligent and can cast heal or greater restoration 1/week and it can only be attuned by a good aligned PC.

 

[dave2008]

The Phlactery is more or less why they're CR 21. Sure, you can kill them once, but killing them permanently is a hard trick to pull off. Then you have an unkillable high-level mage with all the time in the world planning revenge on you. Not fun.

This is not true. The CR calculation is for combat only. You get the XP if you drop it to 0, not if you destroy is phlactery.

 

[Zardnaar]

If I am DMing a adventure that pits the party against a epic monster but the adventure calls for the epic monster to not fight as it should,not use it's best options,not act like the epic monster realistically should, it better have a overwhelming great reason for doing so or I am going to alter the adventure.

Adventures are not set in stone. A Lich and 40 skeletons is not a good encounter as is. How stupid would a Lich have to be to set up this as his final battle?

Terms like Epic were not used as such in AD&D. Combat was there to advance the story, not design a nasty encounter or whatever. Consider these "epic" monsters.

Lich-11 HD, cast spells as a level 18 wizard.
Ancient Green Dragon - 6 HD
Balor 8+8 hit dice.

Later D&Ds almost removed iconic creatures from the game by making them higher level threats and most players do not play higher level D&D.