D&D 5E Investigation vs Perception

[DEFCON 1]

I'm a huge fan of overlapping skills. It speeds up the game because you don't have to think as hard about which skill is most appropriate;.

Heh heh... whereas I'm the opposite. I don't use overlapping skills because I use the optional rules of not assigning skills to abilities. So for me, it's blatantly easy to determine which of the six ability scores a check would apply to, and then after that, strongly demarcated skills makes it simple to decide which one can be added.

And that's exactly why I use the animate/inanimate Perception/Investigation split. Because for me... passive or incidental checks to sense things is a Wisdom check... an active decision on the part of the player to find things in an Intelligence check. After that's decided... it's dead simple to add in (Perception) when the hidden thing is a person or monster, or (Investigation) when it's a trap or secret door.

I can understand the major questions/concerns of seeing things versus deducing clues or actively searching for someone versus just sensing they are there... when a DM always uses Wisdom (Perception) and Intelligence (Investigation). Because the DM has to actually go into the scenario and try to determine whether the stuff to be found are purely "Hey there it is!" or more of a deduction based on spotted information and how much of that info was perceived passively and how much was concluded, and whether it should apply to the more passive Wisdom versus the more active Intelligence etc. etc.

And that's why I skip it all and not even bother trying to make those choices. For me... choose the passive ability Wisdom for the check, or the active ability Intelligence for the check. Then, for those who are proficient, add in Perception if the hidden thing is a person that moved around to get into their hidden state, or Investigation if the hidden thing doesn't move at all and was camouflaged by someone else who had to stand outside of it and stare at it and figure out the best way to hide it.

For me it makes things so much easier.

 

[wedgeski]

I stick with a simple distinction...but the down-side is that your assertion is correct: Perception is used waaaay more of the time.

Basically, I use Investigation when the character needs to get his nose into the problem. I assume that a use of this skill involves all the senses, including touch. I assume the PC has time to be thorough, and is unstressed. Squinting across the room to spot what's moving in the shadows is Perception. Prodding the dark with your sword is Investigation.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The "animal test" that someone suggested in one of the previous threads on this subject was a good rule of thumb I think.

Essentially, animals generally are much better at Wis(Perception) checks than Int(Investigation) checks. So use Perception to detect stuff that an animal would spot and Investigation to understand the significance of something that an animal probably wouldn't.

 

[Horwath]

Hmm...

Sorry, english is not my native language so I might miss some finesse in it.

I said; player: "I think that there could be tiny holes in floor for liquid"

reply should be: DM; "yes, they look like it. your could be right". "you think are for that reason" is said as conformation of players idea, not suggested idea from DM.

 

[pdzoch]

Perception is constantly used, which I think is why there is a passive perception state. Investigation has to be applied. It is also a skill that allows for character capability without actually having to role play the thought process (I would not expect a player to conduct Sherlock Holmes type deduction on their own for their character -- just roll).

For many items that would require investigation, I have allowed for automatic success under the heading "inherently obvious to the casual observer" or "common knowledge"

Examples:

Secret Door. Passive perception to spot a secret door. Active perception to search for a secret door. If found, is it obvious to operate? if so, open door and enter. If not, roll an investigation check to see if you can figure out how to open it. When a
player states "I'm searching for a secret door," I have them roll a perception check. When a player asks if it looks like the room has a secret door, then I have them roll an investigation check.

Traps have the same process. Detection using perception. Investigation to figure out how to disarm it.

In both these cases, my lower level characters are often encountering things well hidden, but fairly obvious connections, functions or causes. So, they use the perception MUCH more than investigation.

Here is another example:
Party comes upon a merchant wagon with slain bodies. Perception spots the elements of the fight, anyone still hiding, objects of note, etc. Perception will also note the wounds, if visible. But investigation would be required to identify what type of wound, and if those wounds are consistent with the way the fight appeared to have occurred (such as noticing wounds indicative of a claw or teeth instead of sword and arrow scattered about the area).

In a way, investigation is a check on meaning whereas perception is a check on appearance.

 

[Shiroiken]

In general, I try to make both of them useful when searching. Perception is still generally considered better overall, however, because of Stealth and Ambushes.

Perception: overlooked items (such as in a pile of trash), some traps, and some secret/concealed doors

Investigation: hidden items (such as in a false bottom), some traps, and how to open secret doors.

 

[77IM]

Here's another easy rule of thumb:

• Perception takes a split second; it can be done for free or as a reaction, or maybe as long as your entire action if you're actively scanning around.
• If it takes longer than a single turn, it's Investigation, whether it be multiple rounds, minutes, hours, or even days.

 

[Bawylie]

Here's another way of looking at it:

What would a player have to declare in order for you to ask for a Wisdom check?

What would they have to declare for you to ask for an Intelligence check?


-Brad

 

[robus]

Perception is constantly used, which I think is why there is a passive perception state. Investigation has to be applied. It is also a skill that allows for character capability without actually having to role play the thought process (I would not expect a player to conduct Sherlock Holmes type deduction on their own for their character -- just roll).

For many items that would require investigation, I have allowed for automatic success under the heading "inherently obvious to the casual observer" or "common knowledge".

I'm not sure that's the distinction. Passive skill checks are for things done repetitively over time. They are certainly active. I hope the person keeping watch is actively looking for danger, but that wouldn't call for a regular ability check because they're doing it for hours and may not actually detect any danger.

Passive investigation would translate to spending a day in a library trying to find some important piece of historical lore or arcana. Passive perception wouldn't help there and an active intelligence check on every table of contents scanned would be tedious.

So the difference is really a matter of duration. Declared action requires a short amount of time? Active check. Long period of time? Passive check.

 

[Hriston]

Wondering if anyone uses Investigation over Perception to find things in rooms etc etc. It seems Perception is used so often, yet I am wondering if it should be used as more of an initial look over a room and if someone goes to really search they could use Investigation.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

David

I might call for an INT (Investigation) check if a character looks for clues that point to where something is hidden or tries to deduce the location of a hidden object from clues that are visible.*

*Or clues that are known to the character by whatever means.