D&D 5E How Would You Run It? -- Dragon Dilemma continued

[ezo]

From my other thread here: D&D 5E - Dragon Dilemma - Opinions? Advice? All are welcome!

Tonight is our session so see what happens, but after the discussion on Group Checks it got me wondering a chicken-egg situation.

Consider my session tonight outlined in the Dragon Dilemma thread. I have one expert at Steatlh (Scout with +11, who will cast invisibility if he sees the dragon approaching--very likely!), one mediocre (Healer at +2, with advantage, and will use guidance if he sees the dragon approaching), one horrible (Tank +0 with disadvantage).

However, the passive Perception is 21 for the dragon, normally making the Tank "unhide-able". But the Tank has Wisdom (Survival) +4, so I am allowing him to roll that in an attempt to "hide" in natural surroundings given the hunter-experience from his background. It seems more appropriate given the situation than using Stealth for him. It is a little bit of a stretch, but otherwise he is a non-factor and will automatically fail vs DC 21.

Other factors might come up before the actual rolls, of course. So how will this play out? I don't know. As I see it I have three options:

A) I use the dragon's passive Perception 21. The three players will roll (@ +11 most likely with advantage, +2 with advantage and a possible +1d4, and finally +4) vs the DC 21.

B) The PCs use passive scores for their attempts: the Scout will then have a 21, the Healer a 17 (+1d4 possibly), and the Tank 14. I will roll the dragon's perception at +11.

C) Contested rolls all-around! Everyone rolls. Dragon at +11, Scout +11 with likely advantage, Healer +2 with advantage and likely +1d4, Tank +4.

D) Passive scores all-around. Dragon finds them except maybe if the Healer rolls a 4 on the d4 for guidance. If ties go to the PCs, that would give the "win" to the PCs.

I also have to consider who "wins ties" in these cases as contested checks?

Then, there is the choice of Group Check (two "wins" by the party indicates avoidance) or Individual (one "fail" by the party indicates discovery!).

So, thoughts? Opinions?? I know how I am seeing this working out, but I like to see how others interpret it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Me personally... I don't default to the game mechanics, I go based upon the narrative that is being played out. And then once that decision gets made, if mechanics become necessary then I will use them as appropriate.

In this particular case... I would really just concern myself with the black dragon and what it wants. What is its motivation right now? Does it actually want to find these PCs and try and get revenge on what they did to it earlier? Is a frontal assault the best way the dragon would feel to do that? Or would it rather bide its time, lick its wounds, and decide on some other method of revenge against the party (like go find the body of the dead party member and use it or ransom it?)

If it was determined that a full frontal assault on the party WAS the only thing it desperately wanted to do... then Stealth checks would be virtually unnecessary, as the dragon would basically just rampage across the entire landscape looking for them, destroying all the trees and potential cover the party could possibly hide behind and thus find them all by actually getting them plainly into line of sight-- thereby removing any possibility of using Stealth to begin with.

To avoid that eventuality, the players would have to find really good places to hole up in order to not get seen by the dragon in that way-- trying their best to just wait it out and hope for the dragon to eventually give up. Hiding in a cave or tunnel or something like that. But if the party was just trying to continue "travelling stealthily"? Then they're going to get found regardless of whatever game mechanics could be used because narratively-speaking there's no way an adult black dragon flying through the jungle would not be able to pick out a heavily armor tank tromping through the forest no matter what the other two character might try doing.

Does this method go against the rules and ideas of our more mechanically-inclined membership? Yup. But that's fine. They have their way of playing, I have mine.

 

[Stormonu]

Sounds like the party is pressing their "luck". It's already killed one PC, continuing to track it down at this time is a perilous choice. They could have sent the scout ahead to locate and assess the state of the dragon, and possibly draw it back to a party ambush. However, if they push on assaulting the dragon in their weakened state without a solid plan, they get what they get.

Overall, I would think it would be in the party's interest to fall back to a civilized location. If just four individuals nearly killed the thing, it would probably think twice about raiding a community and risking meeting an even larger or more proficient group. More likely it will use its familiar to keep tabs on the party and assess if it under further danger of immediate attack, and plan any reprisals (time and place) based on what the familiar discovers.

The dragon has to be within 100 feet to instantly communicate information back to the dragon. If it is sent afar scouting, the party might be able to detect and deal with it, denying the dragon information about the party's state. I would garner that if the party detected and destroyed the familiar, it would likely make the dragon more hesitant to press an attack, and more prone to wait and shore up defenses in case the party returns.

Dragons live for hundreds of years, while mere mortals live a few decades. The dragon can easily outlive the threat of the party rather than risk death, and after being knocked so close to death, avoidance might be the more prudent courses of actions. It can wait and doesn't have to rush its revenge - in fact, making the PCs remaining days miserable may be a better revenge (think of Smaug and his assault on Laketown rather than hunting down Bilbo).

 

[ezo]

Sounds like the party is pressing their "luck". It's already killed one PC, continuing to track it down at this time is a perilous choice. They could have sent the scout ahead to locate and assess the state of the dragon, and possibly draw it back to a party ambush. However, if they push on assaulting the dragon in their weakened state without a solid plan, they get what they get.

Overall, I would think it would be in the party's interest to fall back to a civilized location. If just four individuals nearly killed the thing, it would probably think twice about raiding a community and risking meeting an even larger or more proficient group. More likely it will use its familiar to keep tabs on the party and assess if it under further danger of immediate attack, and plan any reprisals (time and place) based on what the familiar discovers.

The dragon has to be within 100 feet to instantly communicate information back to the dragon. If it is sent afar scouting, the party might be able to detect and deal with it, denying the dragon information about the party's state. I would garner that if the party detected and destroyed the familiar, it would likely make the dragon more hesitant to press an attack, and more prone to wait and shore up defenses in case the party returns.

Dragons live for hundreds of years, while mere mortals live a few decades. The dragon can easily outlive the threat of the party rather than risk death, and after being knocked so close to death, avoidance might be the more prudent courses of actions. It can wait and doesn't have to rush its revenge - in fact, making the PCs remaining days miserable may be a better revenge (think of Smaug and his assault on Laketown rather than hunting down Bilbo).

You might not be familiar with the other thread? The dragon is HUNTING the party... not the other way around.

 

[Mort]

Rather that a 1 off roll off, have you considered running this as a skill challenge?

Something like, the Dragon makes a series of perception checks - you note the results, that is the difficulty for a given check.

The players then pick a skill that they think might be useful to the situation, Stealth is obvious, but let them be creative (and decide if there is a limitation on number of uses of any given skill).

If the group, as a whole, can succeed on 4 (this is an arbitrary number, pick a number you think is appropriate) checks before they fail 4 checks, they escape. If they fail 4 before succeeding on 4, the dragon finds them and hilarity ensues.

You can really play up the tension as the checks are passed from player to player. Might be a fun change of pace for them. Plus it allows them to get creative in their skill use to try and escape (fighter uses athletics to move certain terrain and get cover from the dragon's senses, that sort of thing - again best let them be creative).

 

[Stormonu]

You might not be familiar with the other thread? The dragon is HUNTING the party... not the other way around.

I read the opening post of the other thread (and just glanced through some of the following posts), and agree with @DrJawaPhD - the dragon hunting the PCs is a suicidal move on its part, and a choice by the DM. All I can do is give my perspective on what I feel about the situation. If the party is trying to pull back (which sounds like they are trying to do), I'd lean towards letting them do so - maybe a close call alerting the party the dragon is nearby and hunting, but evadable if they don't want to press their luck. If they want to aggressively track the dragon (now or later), then possibly reassess the two groups finding each other and the fallout that ensues.

 

[aco175]

The searching dragon might be limited in knowing which way the PCs left and could be searching a large area, thus flying from 100(s) of feet high. This might dampen the Perception +11- I might grant disadvantage until it finds something that limits the search radius, and then it circles slowly in areas before moving on. This gives the PCs time to spot the dragon and take cover (Stealth) with perhaps Survival check to grant advantage to Stealth if they can find a small washout area under the riverbank like in the movies.

I have no problem with group checks. It might make the thief with +11 give the fighter the invisibility instead of using it on himself.