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D&D 5E What is "broken" in 5e?

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
At this very moment I am sitting at a bar with a pork sandwich in front of me. There is also a choice of hot sauces, including Tabasco and a habenero barbeque.

You are responsible for what happens next!
To further my analogy since you have given me the opportunity:

If I were eating that pork sandwich, I'd certainly go for the habenero barbeque sauce because I love hot foods (my favorite pizza is one with diced habenero, sliced olive, and chicken, for example). And I have literally no expectation that anyone else would, or should, join me in doing so - but they'd better not try to have the heat of that sauce toned down, because they don't have to take away something I like to make it enjoyable for them, they just need to add a bit of mayonnaise.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
I'm genuinely curious what everyone here thinks is broken in 5th edition DnD. First though, a few things...

Broken in this thread I take to mean as one of two things:

1. Does not function well; not as effective as it should be, doesn't perform the task it's supposed to, otherwise does not work, etc.
2. Functions too well; more effective than it should be, usable for tasks not intended, etc.

If you have a different definition of broken, please explain what you mean when you say broken before explaining what is broken and why.

If possible, please suggest a fix (not required), this can be a conceptual fix, not a rules-lawyery explicit rule replacement, just like, "Oh if we changed X to only apply/generally apply then it would fix its strength/shortcomings."
The game presents different kinds of weaponry.

In a game without feats, the small weapon (a dagger say) is noticeably but not cripplingly weaker in its main function (that is to cause harm) than the big weapon (a greatsword say). This is good, since it means you have an effectively LARGE selection of useful weapon choices to style your character (make a fashion statement as it were).

This mechanism, the fact the weapons table is turned into a menu where most if not all choices are palatable choices, is broken when feats are introduced.

As for how that is, I will leave that for another thread (or more accurately, dozens of other threads and thousands of posts ;) )
 

Salamandyr

Adventurer
While I've made my share of complaints, I don't think anything in 5e is actually broken. I do think a few things are bent, and there a couple things I would have done differently.

But all in all, the game is perfectly playable, and enjoyably so, without a single change.
 


Satyrn

First Post
. . . And now the bottle of habenero sauce lies on the floor, broken. My mouth is a raging inferno, and I have been asked to leave and never come back.

If only I had never modded my sandwich!
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
To further my analogy since you have given me the opportunity:

If I were eating that pork sandwich, I'd certainly go for the habenero barbeque sauce because I love hot foods (my favorite pizza is one with diced habenero, sliced olive, and chicken, for example). And I have literally no expectation that anyone else would, or should, join me in doing so - but they'd better not try to have the heat of that sauce toned down, because they don't have to take away something I like to make it enjoyable for them, they just need to add a bit of mayonnaise.

Yeah, in that other thread an argument was made that makes no sense to me. Getting past actual insults of other people, it was argued that the champion fighter should have extra things, and for those that wanted a simpler version (like the champion) they should just get their own class.

Why? The people that want a simpler fighter got it. It's called the Champion fighter. For those that wanted a more complex fighter, they got the battlemaster. Even just from an efficiency standpoint, it makes no sense to take away and then create a brand new class for people who already have what they want. And even then, the cynical part of me assumes that even if they did create a whole new class that was simpler, the same people complaining about the boring champion would create threads about how boring the new class is.

It's like just having a class that other people want that you don't is taken as a personal affront by some people. No one says you have to play every class/subclass in the book, and it must fit your preferences.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
But "Sharpshooter" being a "better" feat than "Actor" does not and really should not qualify as "broken" to anyone.
Indeed, that feat A is "better" than feat B is not in itself broken, "broken", or any other kind of bRoken.

No, "broken" means something that doesn't work as intended.
And here we are.

A feat is "broken" if it effectively shuts down parts of the combat engine you expect ranged combat to have; in the case of SS that targets no longer become harder to hit the further away and the less you see of them.

But even that might be argued is a fair price to pay for simplicity.

Harder to argue is that Sharpshooter (together with GWM) isn't broken in regards to the menu of choices that is the list of weapons. As a player, you can find a role model in books, movies etc for essentially every combination of weapons there is. And while one might make d4+5 or 7 damage and another might make d12+5 or 11 damage, they remain in the same ballpark.

But the addition of feats breaks this menu of choices. Suddenly there are a very select few choices that add between 30% and 100% effectiveness compared to all the rest. This is well and truly broken, since it considerably reduces variety. It reduces choice. And don't come arguing that you can still select the three-legged war scythe as a weapon. If it doesn't deal damage even comparable to what you could have chosen, it isn't really a choice.

If you combine these two aspects (negating combat "physics"; non-competitive damage), there is no longer an argument. Especially if you pile on a third one: the fact that monsters in the MM seem calibrated for the featless game (monsters don't have feats and few monsters enjoy anything close to the upgrade player can accomplish through feats).

The overall analysis can only be that (parts of) the 5E feat subsystem does not work as any sane designer could have intended it to.

Thus broken.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I'm not sure that's a meaningful question, nor can I really explain why it's not. The best I can do is an analogy:

Glass is, most simply, silicon & oxygen. So is sand. In fact, glass can be made from sand. They're the same thing, chemically.

If you have a pane glass window, it's pretty easy to tell if it's broken or not. Cracks show, and whether it's keeping the wind out is readily apparent.

If you have a pile of sand, is it broken? Not if you want it in a pile. But, once you make it into a sand castle, it can be be judged an intact or broken sand castle based on the condition it's in. If you go looking for cracks in a sand castle like cracks in a window, sure, you can find many of them, but does it really matter? The sand castle's not going to keep the wind out of your house either way.
Sometimes I wonder Tony.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Some of the rules are a bit wonky, stealth for example perhaps saves at higher levels (not sure if 95% failure rates are RAI).
While I believe Stealth is wonky intentionally because they simply gave up on finding one set of rules, I fully agree the high-level saves are not RAI. It's just sloppy.
 

l0lzero

First Post
[MENTION=57112]Gradine[/MENTION] - like I said, if you have a different definitions ^_-

I get what you're saying, but that's kind of why I gave what I think fits the definition for broken, and then invited others to offer their own. I don't think my definition is perfect, specific, or anything, just what I took away from how people used the term in general.

As to lucky, that's why I was thinking 1/short rest, to limit its effects within a single encounter, and since there isn't a lot of examples for timings of "X/encounter" I figured I'd just use short rest instead (there is the unique battlemaster "when you roll initiative" mechanic, but I struggle to recall another example similar). With the short rest model though, it'd fare better in games where rests are sparse; one of the first debates I got into on this forum was over rests, and quite a few people are using 1-day short 1-week long, so lucky takes a severe beating in efficacy in those games (since it's actually 3/long rest not day like I said before), whereas if it were 1/short rest, you could be lucky once a day at a minimum in those campaigns skewed towards longer rests. My "fix" makes it a little (read "a lot") more useful in short rest heavy games, but you still aren't going to end up with someone completely "wrecking" an encounter (unless they go lucky diviner of course, and I might be remembering a homebrew but I thought there was another fate manipulation option for one of the classes, warlock maybe? Also, by wrecking I mean super dis/advantage, my hyperbole is strong lol).

As to the individual spells, that's why I wanted the whole community involved, so that we can all come together and pool our collective knowledge to suss out what, in fact, might actually be broken (or rather, functioning in a disruptive fashion). I mean, one could argue that meteor swarm is broken, but I think we all understand that that's not really what the intent is, it's more like "does the wording of this effect/spell/ability make something inordinately strong/weak?"

UAs are a whole other mess, but if the devs are looking over message boards (I'm just saying, Mearls follows Morrus on twitter IIRC, might be Crawford, could be both, he could very well check the forums to see what the more devoted members of the community think and feel about things to help supplement playtesting data), then it could be useful for them to see what we generally see as, at the very least, problematic (powerful, weak, strange mechanic in need of simplification, etc., hence the vague definition of "broken").

Also, this could easily apply to monsters as well. Are there any monsters that have been listed as too high or too low of a CR? Is the CR system itself actually accurate? I, personally, argue that it is, given that you don't play with feats or MC, but others might disagree. I'd just like to see what people's thoughts are and I was trying to create a non-judgemental thread that encouraged people espousing their opinions, rather than trying to prove things objectively (since none of us can even agree on what evidence is even applicable since some people say white-room doesn't count, others think it's key, and some just worry about the concept in general).

I appreciate your input, and if you happen to think of, or come across anything you think needs some work, don't hesitate to post it ^_^
 

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